Taiwanese, Mainlanders, and Laowai

[tommy525]

I had some good friends of mine on Taiwan that were born on Taiwan but speak not a bit of Taiwanese, refuse to learn and do NOT call themselves Taiwanese. Thats why I said this.

They were late twenties/ early thirties, descendants of military personnel who came over from the mainland.

The divide still very much exists.

[Mucha Man]

Yes, the divide exists and it's easy to see in Taipei. Anyone over 40 was raised to believe that Taiwanese were inferior, the language and culture were second rate, and that they themselves were Chinese. While there has been a great shift in the last decade it would be naive to think it is complete or that in deep blue areas that the old prejudices have won out to enlightened thinking.

In every election the KMT elite are bandied about as the gentlemen. It's never questioned where this polish came from and whether it was deserved.

[Rotalsnart]

For what it's worth, the only people who accept me as an immigrant have been Taiwanese. This experience is matched by many if not all long term expats I know. Never had a mainlander say I am half Taiwanese, but lots and lots of Taiwanese.

This is generally true in my case too. I've had lots of "Taiwanese" spontaneously say exactly this to me ("you are half Taiwanese") soon after meeting me, but seldom had a "mainlander" say it.

If anyone wonders how I'm classifying "Taiwanese" and "mainlanders" here -- those who spoke to me in Taiwanese accented Mandarin or in Taiwanese, I'm lumping in the former class, and those who spoke in Mandarin without a Taiwanese accent, I'm lumping in the latter. My admittedly unscientific "sample" is primarily taxi drivers.

[Zla'od]

It would be like a good old boy from Texas finding comfort in the social circles around Berkley.

Having some experience with both places, I wonder if you underestimate the Texans and overestimate the Berkeleans. The "social circles around Berkley" consists of what, the motley denizens of Telegraph Avenue? But perhaps you are thinking of the science faculty.

[ChewDawg]

It would be like a good old boy from Texas finding comfort in the social circles around Berkley.

Having some experience with both places, I wonder if you underestimate the Texans and overestimate the Berkeleans. The "social circles around Berkley" consists of what, the motley denizens of Telegraph Avenue? But perhaps you are thinking of the science faculty.

As someone who generally supports Texan styles of conservatism and who has attended courses at Berkeley , I can honesty say I enjoyed stirring the pot there---more so than stirring the pot on here. It seemed to be populated by lots of Marin-county type of urban hipsters that have been fed through the system with high grades, who are attending school with daddy's trust fund money, and who think it is cool to rebel.

I think Stanford is more genuine! (and the chicks are way more preppy!!!)

Are the social circles at Berkeley any more multicultural/diverse and high achieving than any other campuses on the West coast? I don't think so. It's closeness to business clusters make some faculties pretty awesome and innovative but overall? Over rated.

[niaoahgin]

I don't know if this has been thrown across before but something got me thinking about the westerners here and their respective place among the local population. Most of the foreigners I know, and judging by some of the posts I've read on this forum, we as a group are more sympathetic towards native (family ties here pre-1949) Taiwanese and the idea of Taiwanese independence. Being an American idealist I always feel a warm fuzzy when an underdog stands up to a bully, and i share in the sentiment of supporting the Taiwanese cause. But then it donned on me, I'm more likely to get along with a descendent of a Mainlander. Most of them are not hoping the CCP takes over Taiwan, but they are usually strong KMT supporters at the very least, and that's usually a turn off for me. But they are more likely to know English well, have US passports, to have spent time overseas and probably lived in America or have family ties there, are less likely to stare at me like I'm a walking plague, are more likely to have an appreciation for western food and fine drink. In other words, I'm more likely to find enough commonality to develop a personable rapport with a Mainlander than a bin lang chewing beef noodles vender. I have nothing against bin lang and beef noodles, and plenty of "Taiwanese" are educated, well-traveled English speakers too. And of course not all Mainlanders here are beacons of Western sophistication and decadence. I'm just playing around with the idea of this generalization and wondering if anyone has any insight on this idea.

1. More than 80% of foreigners in Taiwan are laborers (外老/goa le ah). Has anyone inquired as to their political inclinations, or are they mostly concerned with providing for their families and obtaining liveable working conditions. From many of the accounts I have heard, they have more to worry about than "fuzzy feelings" about underdogs.

2. From my experience, the consumption of betel nut is not correlated with ethnicity. I partake of the nut on occasion, as does my KMT vest-wearing neighborhood leader (里長/lizhang), aboriginal drinking-buddy, local deep green (DPP) restaurant owner, and most of South-East Asia.

3. Beef noodle soup may have been introduced by Mainlanders, but was perfected by the Taiwanese (who are not skimpy on the beef). The phrase "New Row Mian" is a bastardization only a Taipei politician with his head up his ass could conceive.

4. The "educated" and "well-traveled" residents of this islands (as with almost every other place I have lived) are some of the most selfish, least genuine, and generally unpleasant people to be around. That is, in my own experience.

There it is. Tit for tat. My generalizations vs. your generalizations. Unfortunately, it seems as though generalizations get us nowhere. Generally speaking, that is.

[headhonchoII]

The type of mainlanders who left for the US mainly saw Taiwan as a temporary stepping stone. I guess that this is fair as they did not wish to come to Taiwan in the first place. As for their descendants, they should get real and appreciate the country they grew up in more. And many do I believe.

[shengou]

Mainlanders often do not see themselves as "Taiwanese" even if their children mostly do. But even some of their children refuse to acknowledge themselves as Taiwanese. They are still Chinese.

CHONG KWO REN.

Thus they dont say you are half Taiwanese because they themselves see themselves as Non Taiwanese !

It's very uncomfortable to hear a Taiwanese person say "Us Chinese," "Women Zhongguoren." I've only heard it a couple times. Once or twice on TV and once when a coworker said it. The other Taiwanese in the room got very quiet.

I've actually thought about this before. While reading Formosa Betrayed, the author mentioned numerous times how friendly and well educated the Taiwanese were before the KMT came over. Then while outside, I would look around and see how poor and uneducated the average "Hoklo" Taiwanese is now. I wonder what the culture would be like if the KMT never came over. Would they have kept up with the Japanese? Would the majority still be as they are now? etc....

[Rockefeller]

only just read the title and nothing else. not here to discuss, dispute, argue or support whatever you had to say. just one question.

assuming by 'mainlander' you mean just chinese (the impression I get from browsing this forum) and not the Asian mainland. wondering why you didnt just type chinese.

[Feiren]

The idea that the 'average' Hoklo is poor and uneducated is a complete stereotype. Hoklos account for 70% of the population, so of course they dominate the working class.

There are plenty of highly educated well off Hoklo. I don't think there is a shred of evidence suggesting that Hoklo are disproportionately poor or less well educated.

If you look at Tai-Da, discriminatory polices in the 1960s and and 1920s kept the number of mainlanders above 40%. By the 1980s this had fallen to around 25% and today I'm sure its very close to their actual representation in the population (c. 15%).

See http://homepage.ntu.edu.tw/~luohm/NTU.pdf

Mainlanders often do not see themselves as "Taiwanese" even if their children mostly do. But even some of their children refuse to acknowledge themselves as Taiwanese. They are still Chinese.

CHONG KWO REN.

Thus they dont say you are half Taiwanese because they themselves see themselves as Non Taiwanese !

It's very uncomfortable to hear a Taiwanese person say "Us Chinese," "Women Zhongguoren." I've only heard it a couple times. Once or twice on TV and once when a coworker said it. The other Taiwanese in the room got very quiet.

I've actually thought about this before. While reading Formosa Betrayed, the author mentioned numerous times how friendly and well educated the Taiwanese were before the KMT came over. Then while outside, I would look around and see how poor and uneducated the average "Hoklo" Taiwanese is now. I wonder what the culture would be like if the KMT never came over. Would they have kept up with the Japanese? Would the majority still be as they are now? etc....