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Southeast Asian Maids & Helpers in Taiwan

Moderator: hansioux

Re: Southeast Asian Maids & Helpers in Taiwan

Postby Dirt » 19 Dec 2014, 22:24

Gao Bohan wrote:
Dirt wrote:Work sucks. But we all have to make a living. As long as it's good, honest work, that's life. Suck it up or go do something else.


Making somebody work for years on end without a weekend or a vacation isn't good or honest. That's the point. Sure, work sucks, and we all have to make a living. But that doesn't mean we should have to sacrifice our dignity.

Generally speaking, I think you can learn a lot about a person by observing how he or she treats the powerless. The same is true on a societal scale. We should all listen to the better angels of our nature.


What are you talking about? These people signed a piece of paper to go to Taiwan and work. They were empowered with a choice. Stay in Indonesia and find work or go abroad and make money. Nobody forced them to do it.
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Re: Southeast Asian Maids & Helpers in Taiwan

Postby Gao Bohan » 20 Dec 2014, 02:32

Dirt wrote:What are you talking about? These people signed a piece of paper to go to Taiwan and work. They were empowered with a choice. Stay in Indonesia and find work or go abroad and make money. Nobody forced them to do it.


By that reasoning, there's no need for any kind of laws protecting the health, safety, and rights of workers. So, that steel plant has deadly working conditions? Too bad. Those employees are there by choice. Who cares if management isn't protecting their safety? You're basically taking the position of late 19th/early 20th century industrialists. Meanwhile, society has evolved, and civilized nations invest in the safety and dignity of workers.

All of us face constrained choices. Especially for those in poorer nations, the options are extremely limited. These women are making a huge sacrifice to leave their families behind. You want to compound their challenges with absolutely no rights? No basic level of human dignity, beyond a paycheck?

Based on Elegua's description, it sounds like Singapore has got it right. Classes are required before you can hire a maid, and you have to treat them with respect, provide them personal quarters, give time off and vacations, etc.
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Re: Southeast Asian Maids & Helpers in Taiwan

Postby Dirt » 20 Dec 2014, 02:52

You just shifted from the thread topic to something else. We're not talking about factory workers.

The maid and helpers can negotiate a day off in their contract, however, I would guess that they would have to accept lower pay. Contractors do not get paid vacations.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ ... 03564923/2

Taiwan pays better than Singapore.
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Re: Southeast Asian Maids & Helpers in Taiwan

Postby Gao Bohan » 20 Dec 2014, 04:05

Dirt wrote:You just shifted from the thread topic to something else. We're not talking about factory workers.


No I didn't. The same philosophy applies to all workers - we all deserve respect, dignity, and humane working conditions. Making someone the personal servant of an 80+ year old, 24/7, 365 days a year, without any personal space, vacation, or weekends is abusive and exploitative, and in many nations would be illegal.

I've never bought into the idea that any abusive relationship is OK so long as both sides are "willing". We all face constrained choices in life, and employment is no different. I think it's pretty clear that the Southeast Asian workers in Taiwan have only left their families because they had no other options. That doesn't justify depriving them of dignity.
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Re: Southeast Asian Maids & Helpers in Taiwan

Postby fh2000 » 22 Dec 2014, 01:06

Gao Bohan wrote:
Dirt wrote:You just shifted from the thread topic to something else. We're not talking about factory workers.


No I didn't. The same philosophy applies to all workers - we all deserve respect, dignity, and humane working conditions. Making someone the personal servant of an 80+ year old, 24/7, 365 days a year, without any personal space, vacation, or weekends is abusive and exploitative, and in many nations would be illegal.

I've never bought into the idea that any abusive relationship is OK so long as both sides are "willing". We all face constrained choices in life, and employment is no different. I think it's pretty clear that the Southeast Asian workers in Taiwan have only left their families because they had no other options. That doesn't justify depriving them of dignity.


I agree with your last statement.

As a world citizen, I do not wish to see more NY cops getting executed savagely (one cop was a Chinese decent just got married 2 months ago); no more innocent people getting shot by cops; no more north Africans drowned outside of Italy shore; and no abuse to Indonesian/Philippine helpers overseas. But the world is not a fair place.

The new president in Indonesia is happy with the current arrangement. He encourages more of his countrymen to seek employment in Taiwan:
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/fore ... Widodo.htm

If you are a poor jobless Indonesian, what would you do? Dr. Sun Yet Sen said, seek wealth first, then equality. To me, that is what Indonesians are currently doing. Get food and shelter first.
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Re: Southeast Asian Maids & Helpers in Taiwan

Postby Dr Jellyfish » 22 Dec 2014, 01:30

fh2000 wrote:
Gao Bohan wrote:
Dirt wrote:You just shifted from the thread topic to something else. We're not talking about factory workers.


No I didn't. The same philosophy applies to all workers - we all deserve respect, dignity, and humane working conditions. Making someone the personal servant of an 80+ year old, 24/7, 365 days a year, without any personal space, vacation, or weekends is abusive and exploitative, and in many nations would be illegal.

I've never bought into the idea that any abusive relationship is OK so long as both sides are "willing". We all face constrained choices in life, and employment is no different. I think it's pretty clear that the Southeast Asian workers in Taiwan have only left their families because they had no other options. That doesn't justify depriving them of dignity.


I agree with your last statement.

As a world citizen, I do not wish to see more NY cops getting executed savagely (one cop was a Chinese decent just got married 2 months ago); no more innocent people getting shot by cops; no more north Africans drowned outside of Italy shore; and no abuse to Indonesian/Philippine helpers overseas. But the world is not a fair place.

The new president in Indonesia is happy with the current arrangement. He encourages more of his countrymen to seek employment in Taiwan:
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/fore ... Widodo.htm

If you are a poor jobless Indonesian, what would you do? Dr. Sun Yet Sen said, seek wealth first, then equality. To me, that is what Indonesians are currently doing. Get food and shelter first.


Most people can understand the simple motivation these workers from Southeast Asia have - money. The main problem most people seem to have in this thread, and my initial concern, was the exploitative behavior of the majority of their employers. Many have listed what's wrong with the way things are conducted, while others just can't see anything wrong it, and probably think it's just like that ok - lah, don't think too much - lo, sagacious person XYZ says that money is important... it's just like water... no water and you die etc., and in countries AB and C something else happened.

I'm not saying people from Southeast Asia shouldn't come to Taiwan, and make money for their families back home. What I am wondering; however, is how can a good family take a person - another human being - into their homes, to look after their treasured kids or elders, and not treat them with a bit of compassion. For instance, how difficult would it be to buy your maid/helper some nice and comfortable clothes to work in? The majority of maids/helpers I see following these well-to-do families around, waiting on them hand and foot, seem to wear tattered t-shirts and worn out trainers. Whereas the family members may be decked out with el-o-v (LV) bags, Burberry jackets, and whatever other luxury items. It just looks bad.
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Re: Southeast Asian Maids & Helpers in Taiwan

Postby headhonchoII » 22 Dec 2014, 07:01

fh2000 wrote:
Gao Bohan wrote:
Dirt wrote:You just shifted from the thread topic to something else. We're not talking about factory workers.


No I didn't. The same philosophy applies to all workers - we all deserve respect, dignity, and humane working conditions. Making someone the personal servant of an 80+ year old, 24/7, 365 days a year, without any personal space, vacation, or weekends is abusive and exploitative, and in many nations would be illegal.

I've never bought into the idea that any abusive relationship is OK so long as both sides are "willing". We all face constrained choices in life, and employment is no different. I think it's pretty clear that the Southeast Asian workers in Taiwan have only left their families because they had no other options. That doesn't justify depriving them of dignity.


I agree with your last statement.

As a world citizen, I do not wish to see more NY cops getting executed savagely (one cop was a Chinese decent just got married 2 months ago); no more innocent people getting shot by cops; no more north Africans drowned outside of Italy shore; and no abuse to Indonesian/Philippine helpers overseas. But the world is not a fair place.

The new president in Indonesia is happy with the current arrangement. He encourages more of his countrymen to seek employment in Taiwan:
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/fore ... Widodo.htm

If you are a poor jobless Indonesian, what would you do? Dr. Sun Yet Sen said, seek wealth first, then equality. To me, that is what Indonesians are currently doing. Get food and shelter first.



Ah Dr SYS said it, so it must be this way.
People are people, Lets treat them better and give them equal human rights
instead of exploiting them to the max. You were treated equally under the law in the US, but seemed to have learned nothing.

As a Taiwanese someday you could become absorbed into China, wouldn't it be ironic it that was by force and they started quoting Dr SYS at you?

When you complained they'll say this is the way it should be and we need unity before we have equal rights. You will
nod sagely to the wise words of SYS as they take your property and rights away. You are weak and exploitable so you should be exploited

Fact is your family would get fined and very possibly go to jail for similar treatment of a maid in the US or other western nations or even Asian ones as mentioned above.

Of course Taiwan can always model
itself after other countries,
such shining lights as places in Africa or the Middle East etc.
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Re: Southeast Asian Maids & Helpers in Taiwan

Postby the bear » 22 Dec 2014, 07:37

The average Taiwanese treats their dog better than they treat their helper.
I always wanted to be somebody, but now I realize I should have been more specific.
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Re: Southeast Asian Maids & Helpers in Taiwan

Postby Dirt » 22 Dec 2014, 23:44

Dr Jellyfish wrote:
fh2000 wrote:
Gao Bohan wrote:
Dirt wrote:You just shifted from the thread topic to something else. We're not talking about factory workers.


No I didn't. The same philosophy applies to all workers - we all deserve respect, dignity, and humane working conditions. Making someone the personal servant of an 80+ year old, 24/7, 365 days a year, without any personal space, vacation, or weekends is abusive and exploitative, and in many nations would be illegal.

I've never bought into the idea that any abusive relationship is OK so long as both sides are "willing". We all face constrained choices in life, and employment is no different. I think it's pretty clear that the Southeast Asian workers in Taiwan have only left their families because they had no other options. That doesn't justify depriving them of dignity.


I agree with your last statement.

As a world citizen, I do not wish to see more NY cops getting executed savagely (one cop was a Chinese decent just got married 2 months ago); no more innocent people getting shot by cops; no more north Africans drowned outside of Italy shore; and no abuse to Indonesian/Philippine helpers overseas. But the world is not a fair place.

The new president in Indonesia is happy with the current arrangement. He encourages more of his countrymen to seek employment in Taiwan:
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/fore ... Widodo.htm

If you are a poor jobless Indonesian, what would you do? Dr. Sun Yet Sen said, seek wealth first, then equality. To me, that is what Indonesians are currently doing. Get food and shelter first.


Most people can understand the simple motivation these workers from Southeast Asia have - money. The main problem most people seem to have in this thread, and my initial concern, was the exploitative behavior of the majority of their employers. Many have listed what's wrong with the way things are conducted, while others just can't see anything wrong it, and probably think it's just like that ok - lah, don't think too much - lo, sagacious person XYZ says that money is important... it's just like water... no water and you die etc., and in countries AB and C something else happened.

I'm not saying people from Southeast Asia shouldn't come to Taiwan, and make money for their families back home. What I am wondering; however, is how can a good family take a person - another human being - into their homes, to look after their treasured kids or elders, and not treat them with a bit of compassion. For instance, how difficult would it be to buy your maid/helper some nice and comfortable clothes to work in? The majority of maids/helpers I see following these well-to-do families around, waiting on them hand and foot, seem to wear tattered t-shirts and worn out trainers. Whereas the family members may be decked out with el-o-v (LV) bags, Burberry jackets, and whatever other luxury items. It just looks bad.


The helpers are getting paid. If they're wearing tattered t-shirts, it's because they send all their money home instead of buying new clothes for themselves. Also, these are people who come from "dog eat dog" countries.
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Re: Southeast Asian Maids & Helpers in Taiwan

Postby Gao Bohan » 22 Dec 2014, 23:48

Dirt wrote:The helpers are getting paid. If they're wearing tattered t-shirts, it's because they send all their money home instead of buying new clothes for themselves. Also, these are people who come from "dog eat dog" countries. You have to draw a line somewhere.


Yes, and we draw the line as basic respect and dignity. As world citizens, we all should. The fact you don't speaks rather poorly for you. I'm wondering if you're conscious of how badly you represent yourself.
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