Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhists.

Re: Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhists.

Postby ādikarmika » 05 Apr 2012, 07:47

SauLan wrote:Even when subtle, and often in the guise of being simply anti-Vajrayana, the undertone is consistently anti-Tibetan. The single most striking aspect, to me, is the use of terms, phrases, and sometimes entire sentences from Chinese government media. Even if this group is not Chinese, why on earth would they consider this tactic useful, or more importantly, why do they feel that Chinese government media, of all things, is the best source on Buddhist issues of all things?

Have you seen the website, http://multipletext.com/ ?

Interesting to see the series of 18 articles entitled "Is Lamaism Buddhism?" at http://multipletext.com/listlama.htm
Most of it is so absurd and extreme that it makes Tantrismuskritik and buddhism look like voices of impartiality and sound reason.

Together with the other blatantly anti-Tibet/pro-China political propaganda on the rest of the website (search for articles on Tiananmen, for example), it's hard to see how Zhengjue's campaign is not totally aligned with the objectives of the Chinese government.
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Re: Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhists.

Postby SauLan » 05 Apr 2012, 11:35

adikarmika wrote:
SauLan wrote:Even when subtle, and often in the guise of being simply anti-Vajrayana, the undertone is consistently anti-Tibetan. The single most striking aspect, to me, is the use of terms, phrases, and sometimes entire sentences from Chinese government media. Even if this group is not Chinese, why on earth would they consider this tactic useful, or more importantly, why do they feel that Chinese government media, of all things, is the best source on Buddhist issues of all things?

Have you seen the website, http://multipletext.com/ ?

Interesting to see the series of 18 articles entitled "Is Lamaism Buddhism?" at http://multipletext.com/listlama.htm
Most of it is so absurd and extreme that it makes Tantrismuskritik and buddhism look like voices of impartiality and sound reason.

Together with the other blatantly anti-Tibet/pro-China political propaganda on the rest of the website (search for articles on Tiananmen, for example), it's hard to see how Zhengjue's campaign is not totally aligned with the objectives of the Chinese government.


Wow. Nope, hadn't seen that. I'll have to approach it after a full night's sleep and with a fresh cup of coffee in my hand.

The mere fact that it's written in English inspires me to smell a rat.
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Re: Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhists.

Postby SauLan » 24 Apr 2012, 21:59

Buddhism wrote:Tsongkhapa, Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path, translated into Chinese by dharma-master Fazun, Wondrous Favor Publishing Co., 1986, p.376


Buddhism, I'm having a hard time finding this book (and publishing company); do you think you could scan page 376? Or if you could photocopy it, I would send payment for copying costs, postage, etc.

You have said this page contains a passage about 12 year old girls being used in tantra; I think it's very important to look at this original page by Fazun.

Fazun passed away in 1980, but the book was published in 1986; do you know who it was that was responsible for publishing his translation at that time?

Thank you, and I will be very happy to compensate you for any costs in getting this page to me, since this book seems to be very rare.
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Re: Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhists.

Postby zeusma » 25 Apr 2012, 10:36

It's been 56 pages, I really can not connect Zhengjue with anti-Tibet/pro-China political propaganda. sorry
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Re: Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhists.

Postby Isha » 25 Apr 2012, 11:39

zeusma wrote:It's been 56 pages, I really can not connect Zhengjue with anti-Tibet/pro-China political propaganda. sorry


Try looking with different keywords and key concepts, you will see a direct mutual relationship.
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Re: Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhists.

Postby SauLan » 26 Apr 2012, 12:35

Buddhism wrote:
adikarmika wrote:...She was coerced. That's hardly the same as being a "sex slave".

Zla'od wrote:(
So why did she stay for almost three years? "Personal prestige. The women believe that they too are special and holy. They are entering sacred space. It produces good karma for future lives, and is a test of faith."

My dear lady and Mr. Sigh, please, the focus of our subject has to be correct.
The key issue here is about a prominent monastic guru’s misconduct; he sexually abused his disciples while presented himself as a holy celibate yogi to the world. For a religious leader, such disgraceful deed should not have happened from the very first. We are not into details about his unfortunate chosen "consort."

No offense to any other religion; just to make an example, if a Cardinal continually and secretly abused several nuns, but presented himself as a holy person to the outside world, is such behavior tolerable?

Most importantly, Kalu tried to keep his case secret, so it is plain obvious that Kalu understood very well that his secret-consort-practice has nothing to do with the Buddhist cultivation; don't forget, he was one of the celebrated Tibetan Tantric masters who was guiding the world to practice Tibetan "Buddhism." In a way, Kalu did act in accordance with what he had learnt from his lineage, that the Highest Yoga Tantra (sexuality) is the final goal for practitioners to obtain Buddhahood.

As from our earlier posts, you two are well aware of the Buddhist monastic precepts.

Another piece of info,
An Interview with June Campbell on Codes of Secrecy and Silencehttp://www.anandainfo.com/tantric_robes.html
The Emperor's Tantric Robes

Tricycle: In Traveler in Space, you speak of your own sexual relationship with the late Kalu Rinpoche [1904-1989]. And the revelation was truly shocking to anyone in the West or the East who had known this master. He was considered to be a great Tibetan teacher; who was presented to the world as a celibate yogi.

Tricycle: You ended up feeling sexually exploited? Used for personal indulgence?

Campbell: …. I've got no doubts now that when a male teacher demands a relationship that involves secret sex, an imbalance of power, threats, and deception, the woman is exploited. You have to ask, "Where does the impulse to hide sexual behavior come from?" Especially if it happens in a system that supposedly values the sexual relationship.
…What's that all about if it's not about fear of being found out!
And what lies behind that fear? These are the question I had to ask.

Tricycle: You were sworn to secrecy by him?
Campbell: Yes. And by the one other person who knew. A member of his entourage.


The Journal of the International Association of Tibetan Studies (JIATS) mentions this edition of Fazun's sNgags Rim Chen Mo translation:

Mizong zidi guanglun. 1939. Reprint, Shanghai: Shanghai Foxue shuju, 1996.

http://www.thlib.org/collections/texts/ ... tuttle/c3/#ixzz1syAnQx87

In Tibetan Buddhists in the Making of Modern China by Gray Tuttle, this same 1939 translation is referenced, with the Chinese title given as Mizong zidi guanglun, as above, the English as Vast Treatise on the Graduated Esoteric Path, and the original Tibetan as sNgags Rim Chen Mo.

I can find no reference so far to a 1986 edition by Wondrous Favor Publishing Co., other than in the 12-year-olds-in-tantra scandal threads. Buddhism - would you be willing to provide a scan or photocopy of the page in question?
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Re: Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhists.

Postby Buddhism » 28 Apr 2012, 02:24

SauLan wrote:Buddhism, I'm having a hard time finding this book (and publishing company); do you think you could scan page 376? Or if you could photocopy it, I would send payment for copying costs, postage, etc.

You have said this page contains a passage about 12 year old girls being used in tantra; I think it's very important to look at this original page by Fazun.

Fazun passed away in 1980, but the book was published in 1986; do you know who it was that was responsible for publishing his translation at that time?

SauLan wrote:
Buddhism wrote:Tsongkhapa, Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path, translated into Chinese by dharma-master Fazun, Wondrous Favor Publishing Co., 1986, p.376


Buddhism, I'm having a hard time finding this book (and publishing company); do you think you could scan page 376? Or if you could photocopy it, I would send payment for copying costs, postage, etc.

You have said this page contains a passage about 12 year old girls being used in tantra; I think it's very important to look at this original page by Fazun.

SauLan, I do apologize for my belated reply; I don't daily visit the website.
I gave you my answer on the other thread alrady, and I will manage to copy the page you requested for.

Fazun was a monk and did study and stay in Tibet for several years. His translation quality is no problem; it's indeed Tsongkhapa's teaching, the same concept can be found in the teachings on Samatha and Vipassana (Tranquility and Insight) 止觀 in the second half of another one of Tsongkhapa’s books, The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment (Lam rim ‘bring ba); however, the use of obscure and esoteric terms makes it difficult for the non-initiated to understand.

Just to share my viewpoint with you and thank you for your interest.
“It is difficult for the correct dharmas to manifest if the erroneous ones are not destroyed 若不破邪,難以顯正.” Bodhisattva Xuanzang (玄奘菩薩) stated in the past.
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Re: Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhists.

Postby Buddhism » 02 May 2012, 23:11

.
SauLan wrote:
Buddhism wrote:Tsongkhapa, Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path, translated into Chinese by dharma-master Fazun, Wondrous Favor Publishing Co., 1986, p.376


Buddhism, I'm having a hard time finding this book (and publishing company); do you think you could scan page 376? Or if you could photocopy it, I would send payment for copying costs, postage, etc.

You have said this page contains a passage about 12 year old girls being used in tantra; I think it's very important to look at this original page by Fazun.

SauLan, my reples to your request,
1. I have scanned and copied the pages you requested for (with helps from my shoolmates); apart from the p. 376, I have also copied p. 399-400 for your reference to show the consistency of the contents that “In the latter stage of the third empowerment, which is transmitted to enable the disciple to expound the sutras, the teacher and the nine female consorts, aged from 12 to 20, attain the state all together…”(Tsongkhapa, Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path, translated into Chinese by dharma-master Fazun, Wondrous Favor Publishing Co., 1986, p.399-400.) 妙吉祥出版社

2. There are other publishers for the same book, (I have copies the texts of the first two books)
ISBN 957-8231-15-6 1999 Universe 大千出版社 (p. 323 & p. 343)
ISBN 957-8926-13-8 1996 蓮魁出版社 (p. 302 & p. 322)
ISBN 978-957-17-1626-8 2008 新文豐出版股份有限公司 (p. 302)

I hereby give you a website where you can order a book if you wish.
http://www.ddc.com.tw/PrtShow.asp?Serie ... &CommId=92

3. If you like, you can send a PM to the adm. of Forumosa with your post address, I can mail you the three sets of copies with marks on them; I have compared the texts regarding the "12 years old" girls in these books, they are written the same way all right.

4. Please see the attached pdf and thank you for your patience and interests. As Zhengjue's work is done by all volunteers, there is not any cost involved; you do not have to pay anything.

http://lilychao.sg1006.myweb.hinet.net/pdf/20120502.pdf
“It is difficult for the correct dharmas to manifest if the erroneous ones are not destroyed 若不破邪,難以顯正.” Bodhisattva Xuanzang (玄奘菩薩) stated in the past.
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Re: Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhists.

Postby SauLan » 06 May 2012, 23:54

Buddhism, thank you for all this work, and my apologies with the delay getting back to you. I will read through these and offer some comments. I really appreciate your effort.

It seems that the "page 376" you have scanned comes from a book published in 1975, though? The scan here shows 中華民國七十五年 on the book's intro page (the page just before p. 376). I had thought that "page 376" referred to the Wondrous Favor Publishing Company edition from 1986?
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Re: Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhists.

Postby SauLan » 07 May 2012, 01:26

I also found this commentary on the publications - is it true that the 1986 Wondrous Favor edition was never for sale (or is it just out of print?)

All the references I have found seem to note this:

此書中文本,係法尊法師譯於1939年,印順法師潤色。此書在台灣有兩家出版社印行:一者為妙吉祥出版社,台北市,1986年印行,非賣品,此即平實居士所引用之版本;二者為文殊出版社,台北市,1988年印行,定價新台幣300元。其中「文殊版」有現代的標點符號和分段,較便於閱讀,故依「文殊版」打字製作網頁版;另外,為了便於讀者查索《狂密與真密》的引用處,同時標示「妙吉祥版」之頁碼,其格式為(000)。然而為避免影響網路查索的功能,標示頁碼之處,係放在段落或標點符號後面,與實際分頁處稍有差異。
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