The Bodhi Way (三乘菩提)

[adikarmika]

For your information, Buddhism is not merely a philosophy, as a matter of fact, it can be personally realized and verified in accordance with the stages described in the sutras.

The idea that spiritual progress can be verified or gauged in any way is a myth.

Other than the closeness with which they adhere to a certain moral code (which I don't wish to denigrate), there is no way that one person can be demonstrated to be more spiritually advanced (or "holier", or "more enlightened") than any other person.

All religious hierarchies, whether it be Catholicism, Tibetan Buddhism, or your own peculiar sect, are based on people's assent to this myth.

Yes, I know that in Chan/Zen, spiritual realisation is certified by those who have themselves been certified by others.
But it amounts to the same thing.
Ultimately, there is no way that it can demonstrated that the original certifying authority was any more "enlightened" than anyone else.

And since all "religious experience" is essentially private and subjective, how can any guru certify my "enlightenment" anyway? (BTW, "enlightenment" is a peculiarly Western term - "awakening" is in fact a much more accurate translation of the Sanskrit word, "bodhi").


On the other hand, as professors and university students know quite well, knowledge of philosophy is something that can be measured, and it is the basis for handing out distinctions, credits, passes and fails.

Reading the works of Wittgenstein, Rorty, Searle, Candrakīrti, Dharmakīrti, Tsongkhapa, etc. (not to mention anonymous texts such as the Prajñāpāramitā and Laṅkāvatāra sūtras), definitely increases my knowledge of philosophy. I might add that reading anti-philosophical Zen texts can be helpful for putting that increased knowldge in perspective.

It may also make me more "awakened" in a Buddhist sense, but that is not anything that can be gauged by others, including you. So why don't you quit acting as if it can.

[Buddhism]

The idea that spiritual progress can be verified or gauged in any way is a myth.
Other than the closeness with which they adhere to a certain moral code (which I don't wish to denigrate), there is no way that one person can be demonstrated to be more spiritually advanced (or "holier", or "more enlightened") than any other person. .

From your viewpoint, it's rather understandable to have such statements.

Benevolence, compassion, and moral code are worldly human ethics; Confucius knew them all along. Buddhist teachings are beyond these, they aim to transcend the worldly existence and seek the eternity.

You must be quite well aware of the first-ground to the tenth-ground Bodhisattvas, the equal-enlightenment Bodhisattvas 等覺菩薩, and the wondrous enlightenment Bodhisattvas 妙覺菩薩 . So they cannot be all at the same level of achievement.
There are totally fifty-two stages to complete the Bodhi path. These stages prove the fact that different stages of cultivation do exist. Getting “awakened” is merely the threshold to start the Buddhist cultivation 內門修行。

It is not recognized as "holier", or "more enlightened", it depends on their profounder cultivation of the Way-Seed-Prajna 道種智and the All-Seed-Prajna 一切種智 (see p. 4). You also know very well, once a person reaches the first-ground 入初地, he/she is actually qualified to enter the remainderless nirvana. (You did once mention on the other thread that when a person reaches the seventh ground, he/she is able to enter the nirvana (or sort of)).

In the Surangama Sutra (Vol. 7 & 8), the fifty-two different stages of requirements and attainments are extensively elaborated.

Reading the works of Wittgenstein, Rorty, Searle, Candrakīrti, Dharmakīrti, Tsongkhapa, etc. (not to mention anonymous texts such as the Prajñāpāramitā and Laṅkāvatāra sūtras), definitely increases my knowledge of philosophy. I might add that reading anti-philosophical Zen texts can be helpful for putting that increased knowldge in perspective.

It may also make me more "awakened" in a Buddhist sense, but that is not anything that can be gauged by others, including you. So why don't you quit acting as if it can.

Only by fostering true prajna wisdom can lead you to awakening, you cannot enrich prajna wisdom through reading by yourself, because you would understand the texts literally 依文解義, instead of comprehending the true essence. That is also why scholars would interpret Buddhism as philosophy.

It’s either “awakened” or nothing, there is nothing in between. You might argue that there was an old Chinese painting of “Ten Oxen 十牛圖” to describe the process of getting awakened. It was only a speculation by an ordinary person, not by an awakened practitioner. Also, you may have heard of the “sudden enlightenment and gradual cultivation 頓悟漸修.”

For your reference, I am certainly not acting as if “awakened” can be gauged;
it just can. You know the Chan koans, for example.

[Buddhism]

Texts of P. 4 for your reference:

Consciousness is the sixth vijnana, and the Alaya vijana is the eighth vijnana.
A Buddhist shall be cultivating his/her consciousness to a sharp (zoom lens) condition in order to detect his/her eighth vijnana.
So consciousness is definitely not the Alaya vijana (Buddha nature; tathagatagarbha).

In fact, the true Buddhahood-Way cultivation adheres to the Buddha’s teachings: First, one must find the eighth vijnana Alaya( Tathagatagarbha); subsequently, one must personally experience and recognize the properties of Tathagatagarbha so as to bring forth the root prajna wisdom 般若慧之根本智 (general-appearance-prajna般若總相智) and then the later-acquired prajna wisdom後得智(specific-appearance-prajna and All-Seed-Prajna般若別相智與一切種智).Perhaps it’s better to make an example, when I describe a “car” for a long time, once you see a car, then you match instantly and understand what I was talking about; this applies to the way of finding the eighth vijnana (enlightenment), so the second round of the dharma transmission the Buddha keeps describing the characteristic of the Alaya vijnana to build up the correct concept of the eighth vijnana.

Then you get into a car and sit on the driver’s seat just look around and enjoy the sentiment; it means you personally experience and recognize the properties of Tathagatagarbha according to what you have learned from the Prajna Paramita Sutras so as to bring forth the root prajna wisdom (general-appearance-prajna). Finally, you look into the car structural manual and driving manual to learn details about the whole car; this refers to the later-acquired prajna wisdom (specific-appearance-prajna and All-Seed-Prajna). During the third round of the dharma transmission, the Buddha taught sutras of Vijnana-Only (唯識方廣經典)and that are exactly the All-Seed-Prajna.

[adikarmika]

The idea that spiritual progress can be verified or gauged in any way is a myth.
... So why don't you quit acting as if it can.

...

For your reference, I am certainly not acting as if “awakened” can be gauged;
it just can. You know the Chan koans, for example.

All right then.

You ask me a koan, I'll give you my answer, and then you tell me whether I'm awakened or not (and how you arrived at your conclusion).

Bet you can't.

[Buddhism]

The idea that spiritual progress can be verified or gauged in any way is a myth.
... So why don't you quit acting as if it can.

...

For your reference, I am certainly not acting as if “awakened” can be gauged;
it just can. You know the Chan koans, for example.

All right then.

You ask me a koan, I'll give you my answer, and then you tell me whether I'm awakened or not (and how you arrived at your conclusion).

Bet you can't.

In fact, I have not asked you, do you truly know what "awakened" means 內涵?
What is your intention that you wanted to get awakened?

If you have the will to get awakened, this wish will eventually lead you to the goal, sooner or later.
Presumably, you already know the requirements for reaching the goal, right? (pls see p. 9)

I don't have to ask you any koan, I know "where" you are through the way you explained Nagarjuna's Middle-Way. You have not gained the proper knowledge for the basics; you stay literally with the texts and speculate with your conscious mind.

Since you understand Tibetan language, you can read Dolpopa Sherab Gyaltsen's "Ocean of Definitive Meaning (Ri chos nges don rgya mtsho)"; read the original version, not the translated English version.

Currently around the globe, the only way to get "awakened" is to study at Zhengjue.
No hard feeling, check with your Buddhist "knowners" around, as I stated earlier. With your language talent and assiduous study, having learnt the basics (including concentration practice) at Zhengjue, you would be arranged to attend the exame.

Just to remind you of my ealier post regarding "awakened":

More info for your references, the basic requirements for everyone who is interesed in the subject.
1. Enlightenment is the unsurpassed wisdom taught by the Buddha, initially meant for the true Buddhists who have taken refugee in the Three Jewels and kept the precepts in daily deportment;
2. In principle, to prepare oneself to this path, he/she should possess the bodhisattva seed-nature 種性[gotra], and his/her intention to get enlightenment are not meant for personal profit in the mundane world (as a means to collect money, fame, power, etc.)
3. When an individual’s merits and virtues are sufficient enough 福德, his/her bodhisattva seed-nature has been properly brought forth 發起菩薩種性, prajna knowledge has been gradually fostered 般若知見, concentration skill 定力(zoom-lens mind) is mature, habitual hindrances性障is lessened, one will be likely to get enlightened and become a member of the Bodhisattva Sangha...
Mind you, “enlightenment” is merely a start in Buddhist cultivation 入門 , which enables the practitioner to understand the meaning of the Prajñāpāramitā sutras, thereby he/she is capable of moving further to the third round of the dharma transmission, studying the sutras of Vijnana-Only [Vijnanavada ].

The third round of the dharma transmission is to unveil all the functional distinctions of the Buddha nature (through personally experiencing them all) and comprehend all the seeds of deeds which have been collected and stored in the Alayavijnana during our past reincarnated lives. Having personally realized every stages (the fifty-two stages of the great bodhi way), one will then completely fulfill the ultimate fruition of Buddhahood.

Note: The fifty-two stages of the great bodhi way is available in English version upon request; I still have to find out how to post it here, it’s an Excel file.

[Buddhism]

Having understood the Liberation-Way properly, Mahayana practitioners (bodhisattvas) will proceed further to seek the Buddhahood-Way.

Their foremost task is to personally experience and recognize 親證the properties of Tathagatagarbha (uncover the Alayavijnana) in order to bring forth their root prajna wisdom (general-appearance-prajna 般若總相智). The bodhisattvas should use the root prajna wisdom as the foundation to learn the all-seed-wisdom---which is the understanding of all different functions among the seeds stored in the Tathagatagarbha, as well as the vijnana-only wisdom, etc.

From that root prajna wisdom, bodhisattvas can gradually develop the later-acquired prajna wisdom 般若後得智 (specific-appearance-prajna 般若別相智and All-Seed-Prajna 一切種智) and enter the first-ground later on.

In other words, if a Buddhist is not enlightened, then he would not be able to truly witness, observe, and personally convert to the nature of Alayavijnana; he cannot proceed further to cultivate the Buddhahood-Way, because he just cannot follow the prajna meanings of the sutras simply by using his perceptive mind.

Glossary:
1. General-appearance-prajna: The Buddhist mundane and transmundane wisdom on the general functions of Tathagatagarbha
2. Specific-appearance-prajna: The Buddhist mundane and transmundane wisdom on the specific detailed functions of Tathagatagarbha

[adikarmika]

What is your intention that you wanted to get awakened?

Well, assuming (and it's a big assumption to make) that there is such a thing as an "awakened" state, I imagine it to be one completely free from existential dread.
Thus, my desire (such as it is) to get awakened is nothing more than the natural desire for freedom from the anxiety that comes with being aware of my possible nonbeing.

I believe the viewpoint of Prāsaṅgika school of Buddhist philosophy, which I interpret as the denial of any phenomena intrinsically existing independent of the designations of conceptual thought (and which is taught by the Gelugpa sect of Tibetan Buddhism), may offer such a freedom through its unique interpretation of the basic constructs of being and non-being -- i.e., a kind of middle way (to use a dangerously loaded term.)

I'm sorry, but I don't buy into the noble bodhisattva ideal of becoming enlightened in order to liberate all sentient beings from suffering.
In other words, I may be a Prāsaṅgika, but I'm not a Mahāyānist.

And although I haven't reached any final conclusions in the matter, I tend not to buy into the Chan interpretation of ālayavijñāna either, which, as far as I can see, is just another take on the Absolute, or Godhead, or Brahman. (It doesn't mean that Chan can't be considered as a heterodox form of Buddhism, of course.)

I don't have to ask you any koan, I know "where" you are through the way you explained Nagarjuna's Middle-Way. You have not gained the proper knowledge for the basics; you stay literally with the texts and speculate with your conscious mind.

Your response doesn't surprise me.
I always thought basic Buddhism was simply about being honest, kind, and having respect for other living beings. What's wrong with my understanding?

Currently around the globe, the only way to get "awakened" is to study at Zhengjue.

Critical thinking and openness to other points of view, I gather, are in short supply at Zhengjue.

Since you understand Tibetan language, you can read Dolpopa Sherab Gyaltsen's "Ocean of Definitive Meaning (Ri chos nges don rgya mtsho)"; read the original version, not the translated English version.

Hopkins is a highly regarded professional translator. What's wrong with the his translation? Is he too impartial for your liking?

BTW, you have never addressed the glaring self-contradiction of, on the one hand, promoting the Jonang school of Tibetan Buddhism, while at the same time conducting a Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism campaign. Is that because such an explanation would be tantamount to admitting your campaign is actually political?
It's about time you explained yourself, don't you think?

[Buddhism]

Well, assuming (and it's a big assumption to make) that there is such a thing as an "awakened" state, I imagine it to be one completely free from existential dread.
Thus, my desire (such as it is) to get awakened is nothing more than the natural desire for freedom from the anxiety that comes with being aware of my possible nonbeing.

I believe the viewpoint of Prāsaṅgika school of Buddhist philosophy, which I interpret as the denial of any phenomena intrinsically existing independent of the designations of conceptual thought (and which is taught by the Gelugpa sect of Tibetan Buddhism), may offer such a freedom through its unique interpretation of the basic constructs of being and non-being -- i.e., a kind of middle way (to use a dangerously loaded term.).

Appreciate your honesty and reply;
1. “Awakened” in Sanskrit means “bodhi”, as you stated earlier, could you tell me how does Prasangika Madhyamika explains “bodhi”?

2. Ancient Hindu sages have already come to the conclusion that all worldly phenomena are dependent arising dharma without intrinsic nature, including our perceptive mind. They assume there exists the Absolute, or Brahman that could keep beings ongoing, but they cannot get the correct answer other than all sorts of assumption. Then was the ripe time for the Buddha to manifest on earth to teach the Truth of existence.

"Unique interpretation" formed and remains within the scope of the conceptual thought or the perceptive mind which belongs to a dharma of dependent arising, and is impermanent; once an individual passes away, what is left for this thought of “unique interpretation of being and non-being”?

The conscious mind (the sixth vijnana) does exist only one life time, as no one (normally speaking) remembers his past life; so no one is able to bring along his current conscious mind to the next new life.

How can you rely on a definitely terminated conceptual thought to secure your freedom of any kind? It’s merely a soothing wishful thinking. True Buddhism is an empirical religion enabling followers to personally witness and experience the Alayavijnana, instead of conceptual speculations.

Besides, “if” the state of nonbeing should come, your conscious mind would vanish as well, the same way as we fall into deep sleep every night, the only difference is that you don't wake up any more for this live show, so what do you have to dread for?

I don't have to ask you any koan, I know "where" you are through the way you explained Nagarjuna's Middle-Way. You have not gained the proper knowledge for the basics; you stay literally with the texts and speculate with your conscious mind.
Your response doesn't surprise me.
I always thought basic Buddhism was simply about being honest, kind, and having respect for other living beings. What's wrong with my understanding?.

Nothing wrong with your basic understanding, though, these are merely the auxiliary dharmas, enabling one to remain in the human or heavenly realm, but not even qualifying for the Hinayana vehicle to transcend the cyclic births-and-deaths, let alone “awakened” to attain the Buddhahood-Way.

Now you mentioned these terms, and Tzu Chi is doing them earnestly, why do you think Tzu Chi is not Buddhism? At least they don’t commit any sexual abuses to the females.

Since you understand Tibetan language, you can read Dolpopa Sherab Gyaltsen's "Ocean of Definitive Meaning (Ri chos nges don rgya mtsho)"; read the original version, not the translated English version.
Hopkins is a highly regarded professional translator. What's wrong with the his translation? Is he too impartial for your liking?
.

Just for your reference, I do not personally know any of them.
I do believe they are both excellent translators.

Rejoinder to Hopkins – by Alex Waymen
The Journal of the Tibet Society
...5) Furthermore, Hopkins omits perhaps the most important statement (…) which is in the “unrevised” edition, PTT, Vol. 77, p. 210-4-1…(Whether Tathagatas arise or do not arise, that true nature of the dharmas remains immemorially, because it is the true nature of the mantras”)…p.82

That is why personally I prefer to read the original version, if possible.

[Buddhism]

What is your intention that you wanted to get awakened?

Thus, my desire (such as it is) to get awakened is nothing more than the natural desire for freedom from the anxiety that comes with being aware of my possible nonbeing.?

You raised a good point here, this innately feeling of staying “being,” sentient beings all have, is the impetus to cause our samsaric births-and-deaths. It is because every individual possesses the unceasing Alayavijnana, when the conscious mind intends to stay on before passing away, the Buddha nature will proceed further to a new realm of existence according to a person’s karmic force. As stated earlier, the Buddha nature will never cease to exist, otherwise how can sentient beings cultivate to attain the ultimate Buddhahood?

Sentient beings will certainly go on living in various realms, whether they are Buddhist or not, except the arhats who have attained liberation from the three realms. On the other hand, what is good on simply existing in cyclic births-and-deaths without any control of it?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy into the noble bodhisattva ideal of becoming enlightened in order to liberate all sentient beings from suffering.
In other words, I may be a Prāsaṅgika, but I'm not a Mahāyānist.

Let me ask you a question first.
If you were one of the world’s biggest tycoon, when you were to pass down your empire, which heir would you choose to have? The one who will keep all richness to himself or the one who will expand the empire infinitely, so to speak?

The Buddhist teachings are passing down the unsurpassed Buddha dharma 無上大法 , in a way, only the ones with enormous big hearts are well equipped to received the ultimate profound dharma. To get “awakened” is essentially passing the threshold that enables one to see through the textual meanings of sutras and to advance profounder cultivation.
If you were able to uncover the prajna, meanwhile to help others to uncover their own prajna, why not?

it will take hundreds and thousands of lifetimes to become a Mahayanist, while a quick Hinayanist would be able to enter nirvana in one or two lifetimes. Everyone can see how big the differences are in cultivation levels.

BTW, you have never addressed the glaring self-contradiction of, on the one hand, promoting the Jonang school of Tibetan Buddhism, while at the same time conducting a Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism campaign. Is that because such an explanation would be tantamount to admitting your campaign is actually political?
It's about time you explained yourself, don't you think?

Don’t forget the Pali canons are agreeable as well, we have to look into the essence of teachings, not sticking to the superficial names and titles.

[adikarmika]

BTW, you have never addressed the glaring self-contradiction of, on the one hand, promoting the Jonang school of Tibetan Buddhism, while at the same time conducting a Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism campaign. Is that because such an explanation would be tantamount to admitting your campaign is actually political?
It's about time you explained yourself, don't you think?

Don’t forget the Pali canons are agreeable as well, we have to look into the essence of teachings, not sticking to the superficial names and titles.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say, but I suspect you want to claim that, since the term "Tibetan Buddhism" is just a superficial name, it's quite unimportant that the Jonangpas are known conventionally as Tibetan Buddhists. Or perhaps you think that since "Tibetan Buddhism" is just a merely labeled conventional phenomenon, you are free to choose not to consider the Jonangpa sect as Tibetan Buddhists, if you like.

Unfortunately, your "explanation" raises more questions than it answers.

1) If labels are so unimportant, why did you write so many posts arguing that Tibetan Buddhism should be called "Lamaism" (i.e., a category distinct from Buddhism)?

2) Why have you always maintained that Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism, when your actual argument is that Tantric Buddhism is not Buddhism?

The reason is, of course, that names are not so superficial after all. And that saying "Tantric Buddhism is not Buddhism" doesn't target a specific ethnic group, whose struggle for religious freedom is inextricably linked to their struggle for political freedom.

You think you can say anything you like because it's "all just words", and when someone points out the basic dishonesty in what you say, your standard response is that they are stuck at the superficial level of language and conceptual thinking and haven't grasped the "true meaning" of Buddhism.

Gimme a break.

Face it, we are all operating at the conventional level of truth here, so the Jonangpa tradition, is just as Tibetan (and just as Buddhist, I might add) as the Gelugpas, the Kagyupas, etc.