The Bodhi Way (三乘菩提)

[adikarmika]

Non-acceptance of the propostion, "Tzu-chi is not Buddhism" is aimed at pointing out the internal contradiction of holding (as I believe buddhism does) that Tzu-chi is Buddhism, but on the other hand asserting that Tibetan Buddhism is not.

Let's wait and see if buddhism bites.
If he/she doesn't, I'd be happy to debate the proposition with you.
However, unless you yourself maintain that Tibetan Buddhisn is not Buddhism, there doesn't appear to be much point. Then again, debates are primarily techniques for learning since they can sometimes lead one to unanticipated conclusions, so why not?

[Buddhism]

Can I play? I choose B.

Don't forget your own remark, if you happen to be a lama...

I think you also have to make a big show of twirling your mala around, and slapping your palm whenever you make a point.

[Buddhism]

Buddhism, I think many people are mistaken in this respect: sexual union is not a requirement to practice tantra, nor to achieve enlightenment. Tsongkhapa was said to have achieved enlightenment, and it was not via sexual yoga.

What's so sad about these discussions is that they perpetuate the idea that sex (of any kind, for pleasure or for other purposes) is somehow "bad." Sex is the most basic function of any species; none of us would be here without it. It only makes sense that in the highest philosophical discussions, the highest spiritual endeavors, this most basic building block of a species would possibly play some part. To say it's "bad" or "dirty" is rather like suggesting breathing is "bad" or "dirty." Sex is not bad, and it never has been. In fact, since all of life on earth requires "sex" of some kind, it's not going too far, in my mind, to suggest that sex itself is sacred (even though regular sex is not referred to as sacred in Tibetan Buddhism). I'll say it again - sex is not bad.Nonetheless, sex is not required for enlightenment on the Tibetan Tantric path. That is a mistaken belief. It may be strongly recommended, but it is not the only way.

And the purpose of tantric practices which seem to us like "sex," are not for sexual purposes, they are for bringing changes to the mind and to the mind's energy. To say that this form of tantric yoga is about "sex" is the same mistake as saying sitting meditation is about "cushions" or about "being cross-legged." Yes, you use a cushion, you sit in a certain way, but only because it's helpful for your mediation. The sexual yoga instructions exist for the same reason: they are helpful for your meditation.

You are right, sex is not bad; I do agree with you.
Please allow me to remind you, the subject on this thread is "The Bodhi Way," and the focus is on how Buddhist teachings can lead sentient beings to transcend the desirous realm 出離三界. As you stated, sex and food are the basic requirements for spicies to pass on, and this is a worldly issue 世間法; while the Bodhi way is just the opposit, it is a transcendental issue 出世間法, about how one can liberate oneself from reincarnation. In this regard, sex would add to a practitioner's craving for emotion and sensation which will hinder the cultivation mind state (explained in a simply way); so it is relatively spoken that sex is a sort of defilement.

I don't know how you define "meditation," but my interpretation of "meditation" is to acquire a certain level of concentration (samadhi)定力 in order to facilatate one to a further cultivation. Yet, any form of sexual yoga (behavior) will simply stir up excitement for the practitioners. Recently, there was an yoga expert's report about the sexual yoga influences on physical bodies in the States, you must have read about it.

I repost my earlier post for your reference:

If we were to discuss about airplane, all the high speed rails or the most expensive sport cars would not qualify to fit in, because they lack the basic require to fly, they cannot take off.

Perhaps such statement is not the best example, what I try to explain is that the final goal in Buddhism is to transcend the Three Realms 三界 or attain Buddhahood. The practitioners should have the correct dharma-gate 法門 to cultivate to attain liberation, otherwise they simply just stay in the Three-Realms. The "taking off"(transcendence) power in Buddhism refers to the prajna wisdom.

Buddhist cultivation is in daily life, and the prajna wisdom is to lead an individual to be freed from reincarnation within the Three Realms 解脫輪迴 through daily life. The Buddha teachings are meant to tell the exact dharma-gates to liberation.

Everyone knows well that the result of sexuality is to have new life, and it means "go on living" within the Three Realms; so why should one intend to practice for liberation and still hold on to a method of "go on living"?

If a monk has sex, he is no longer a monk - simple as that.

Your statement is definitely accurate. A monk has sex, then he has violated the Bhiksus precept 失戒體, and he is no longer a monk.
Sangha have taken refuge in the Three Jewels, so they have dedicated themselves to Buddhism, and their specific duty is to properly cultivate themselves to liberation and Buddhahood, in the meanwhile, spread the Buddha dharma to the public; in this way they are entitled to receive offerings from the public, because they do not earn their living as common people, but they will provide and enrich the wisdom-life of the dharmakaya 法身慧命 to common people.

The Bhiksus (Bhiksunis) precepts are meant to faciliate and boost their cultivation path. If the monastic Sangha are having the same living style as every ordinary people, enjoying food, alcohol, having sex, power, money, politic, etc., what sort of "transcendence" method could they possiblly possess? They are monks or nuns on the appearance only, but in actuality, they are no longer Sangha.

[Zla'od]

Don't forget your own remark, if you happen to be a lama...

Maybe I'll get lucky and be recognized as a Rinpoche. (Hey, I'd do a better job than Steven Seagal or Jetsunma!)

Actually, the answerer sits cross-legged while the questioner stands and does the clapping thing. Oh yeah--and we all have to agree to follow Dharmakirti, even though he isn't a Prasangika Madhyamika.

So Adharmika wants you to say whether Tzu Chi is Buddhist or not. (Hint: You should be thinking in advance of why Tzu Chi is, but Tibetan Buddhism isn't.)

Recently, there was an yoga expert's report about the sexual yoga influences on physical bodies in the States, you must have read about it.

Uh, no. I can't wait to learn what the effects are.

[Buddhism]

Non-acceptance of the propostion, "Tzu-chi is not Buddhism" is aimed at pointing out the internal contradiction of holding (as I believe buddhism does) that Tzu-chi is Buddhism, but on the other hand asserting that Tibetan Buddhism is not.

Let's wait and see if buddhism bites.
If he/she doesn't, I'd be happy to debate the proposition with you.
However, unless you yourself maintain that Tibetan Buddhisn is not Buddhism, there doesn't appear to be much point. Then again, debates are primarily techniques for learning since they can sometimes lead one to unanticipated conclusions, so why not?

Dear Adikarmika, I am so deeply honored! Thank you.
But I fail to see the connection between the subject "Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism" and the subject of Tzu-chi, why Tzu-chi per se? Why not Fo Kwang Shan or Chong Tai Shan?

After you two!
I will give my supplemental remarks after your colorful and energetic debate, just to be gezellig!

[Buddhism]

Maybe I'll get lucky and be recognized as a Rinpoche. (Hey, I'd do a better job than Steven Seagal or Jetsunma!).

You should have seen the photos of nowadays young and handsome dharma kings and Rinpoches; they are smashing! I am flabbergasted, to tell the truth.
You had better concentrate on your scholarly study.

So Adharmika wants you to say whether Tzu Chi is Buddhist or not. (Hint: You should be thinking in advance of why Tzu Chi is, but Tibetan Buddhism isn't.).

Many thanks for your hint; are you not worry about your teeth or so?

Recently, there was an yoga expert's report about the sexual yoga influences on physical bodies in the States, you must have read about it.

Uh, no. I can't wait to learn what the effects are.

http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/ ... rise-here/
Yoga and Sex Scandals: No Surprise Here
Have a nice weekend!

[adikarmika]

buddhism: clearly, you aren't interested in debating anything, and the challenge to debate that your organisation issued to a certain unnamed rinpoche was just a stunt.

You claimed that the debate was open to anyone (even non-Buddhists) as long as the topic was dharma, but when I took up the challenge and asked you to state your thesis, you would not.
So I made it easy for you and switched roles, making me the challenger, thereby giving me the burden of responsibility to prove my thesis.
Yet you still declined to debate, claiming that you don't see the connection between my thesis and another topic that was never mentioned in my challenge.
Your response is totally unheard of in traditional Buddhist debate, yet given your characteristic closed-mindedness and reluctance to consider any proposition that may cast your own peculiar beliefs into question, I must say I am not at all surprised.

Amazingly, you still reserve the right to pass judgement when two other people engage in a debate that your yourself are not willing to have.

Only one word to describe your position, I'm afraid.
Shameless!
(Although you refuse to honor the challenge that you issued, I think I can at least throw in an insult sometimes heard in Tibetan monastic debating forums.)


Zla'od: Tzu chi is not Buddhism because its central practice is non-Buddhist.

(Perhaps you would like to respond on the other thread.)

[Buddhism]

...Only one word to describe your position, I'm afraid.
Shameless!
(Although you refuse to honor the challenge that you issued, I think I can at least throw in an insult sometimes heard in Tibetan monastic debating forums.)

Not an insult at all!

It is a positive token that your statement is dharma related; you are getting closer to the true dharma, somehow touching the characteristic of the Alayavijnana.

Indeed, from my Alayavijnana’s position, I fit the description of “neither shameless, nor non-shameless.”
I hereby quote my earlier post of Nov. for your reference:

In terms of Buddhism, the most known terms are the “emptiness空” and “no-self無我.” Here are two general viewpoints of “emptiness” and “no-self”:

Firstly from the Hinayana viewpoint, if we observe further into the five aggregates, analyzing our ever changing thoughts, sensations, and body functions which are indeed dependent arising from one second to another according to the supporting conditions; we are slowly and surely moving towards our cessation of this life. What am “I”? From a stance of eternity, we were born to existence and will die some day. The fact is whatever was brought forth on earth will eventually cease to exist, because all things belong to a dharma of arising and ceasing有生必有滅. Within the Three Realms, all manifestations are of conditional phenomena, thus they are variable, impermanent, and will eventually become empty; thus for an individual, it is called “no-self” in the Three Realms. The most popular four-line verse in the “Diamond Sutra”are:
All conditional dharmas
Are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, or shadows;
Like drops of dew, or flashes of lightning;
Thus should they be contemplated.

To avoid the misinterpretation of “emptiness” into nothingness, the Buddha also stated in the “Diamond Sutra” that “Those who can see the non-phenomenon beyond all phenomena are those who truly see Tathagata.” Here is one of the core indications to the true reality that the Buddha nature is without any form or appearance; it manifests together with the name-and-form; if the ones who are able to see through the name-and-form, those are the ones who see the true reality.
Yet the mundanely “emptiness” is derived from the impermanent and illusory dharma nature of the Three Realms; this is a sense of so-called “emptiness”, but not a true “emptiness.”

Secondly from the Mahayana viewpoint, the Alayavijnana possesses its own nature that does not belong to any characteristic within the Three Realms. It exists independently since beginningless eons and is not a conditional arising dharma, so it will never cease to exist. It does not respond to the worldly six-sense objects; it is neither-seeing-nor-hearing (no sensation functions), neither-perceiving-nor-knowing (no logical thought or understanding). In other words, the Buddha nature is the everlasting true “no-self” because it does not reflect or contemplate to its own function or existence. In terms of emptiness, the Alayavijnana is eternally in a state of true “emptiness” because it does not arise to manifestation prior to cessation as all phenomena do within the Three Realms. Yet it possesses its own emptiness-nature which functions unceasingly either in nirvana or within the Three-Realms.

[Buddhism]

“Hence, the Tathagata immediately says in verse: All formations are impermanent and belong to the dharma of arising and ceasing; after the extinction of all that arises and ceases, the cessation shall bring a state of bliss. Having stated the verse, the Tathagata then tells all bhiksus, ‘You should know that all formations are truly impermanent. Although now I belong to the vajra entity, unavoidably my physical body is still impermanent and subject to change. It is extremely dreadful to be in the cycle of births and deaths; you should practice diligently with a view to getting away from this fiery pit of births and deaths as soon as possible. This is the last instruction of mine.’” The Great Nirvana Sutra 大般涅槃經, Vol. 3 (CBETA, T01, no. 7, p. 204, c22-29)

“All formations” refer to our worldly phenomena, including ourselves, as the human realm belongs to the desire-realm.

For a normal healthy individual, the perceptive mind plays a very important role and it will read all incoming messages which are received and displayed on our applicable brain areas (internal image of sense-objects 內相分, as explained at p.24 about dreams) that have been transmitted from our sense-organs (five external visible sense-organs 五扶塵根) upon receiving the objects (external sense-objects 外塵相).

All our functional distinctions are fully automatic and rapidly implemented beyond our cognition. The incoming process works similarly as that of a submarine, when the captain views the undersea affairs at his monitor or hydroscope for controlling the views which have been transmitted from the outer apparatus. This is merely a scratchy description to give an idea of how our entire incoming sensory system works.

These are the basic knowledge for the contemplating-process 觀行of both the Hinayana and Mahayana practitioners. For the latter, apart from thoroughly comprehending the process, they have to personally experience the details of every changing process of different levels throughout the cultivation practice after attaining enlightenment. In other words, once an individual has gained enlightenment, he has to utilize the perceptive mind to mindfully coordinate himself with the Alayavijnana and to proceed further to becoming the bodhisattva on or over the First Ground and eventually to complete the Buddhahood-Way. That is why getting enlightened is of vital importance for the Mahayana practitioners.

Some might ask, why are the Buddhist teachings so complicated?
The answer is “not really so.” Comparatively speaking, when we look into our life experience, how long did it take for us to learn to read and write since childhood? And the Buddhist teachings are a matter of curing the unceasingly cyclic births-and-deaths! This learning process is not a matter of only one or two lifetimes (for Hinayana, yes), but it is a really long way to go. Next time the subject will be the dharma and the auxiliary dharma 次法.

Glossary:
Formation-aggregate: In a broad sense, it is the changing of all dharmas including the external world; in a narrow sense, it is the changing of functions and decisions of a sentient being, such as the bodily, verbal, and mental activities.

[Buddhism]

In the "Diamond Sutra"
http://community.palouse.net/lotus/diamond6-10.htm

VI. Rare is True Faith 正信希有分
“Buddha answered: … At the end of the last five-hundred-year period following the passing of the Tathagata, there will be self-controlled men, rooted in merit, coming to hear these teachings, who will be inspired with belief. But you should realize that such men have not strengthened their root of merit under just one Buddha, or two Buddhas, or three, or four, or five Buddhas, but under countless Buddhas; and their merit is of every kind. Such men, coming to hear these teachings, will have an immediate uprising of pure faith…”

Believing in ālayavijñāna or not, it all depends on every individual's own affinity with the Buddhas, I am merely offering a link.

The texts here emphasize the importance of the auxiliary dharma 次法; it is like how a sailing vessel influenced by deep waters, if we do not have rooted in merit, we will not have any chance to come across the true Buddha dharma and to cultivate the transcendental methods; the auxiliary dharma to the Buddhist cultivation is just like that of deep waters for the vessel to sail.

Up till now, the practice methods mentioned of the Liberation-Way and the Buddhahood-Way regarding eliminating self-view and cultivating the prajna wisdom all belong to the Buddha dharma (direct); the rest of the Buddhist teachings that are supposed to boost and facilitate the cultivation path are called auxiliary dharma (indirect).

We have often heard the term “merits and virtues” which could also be another name for auxiliary dharma. However, “merits and virtues” are termed in a broader sense.

Merits and virtues consist of three categories:
1. the worldly 世間福報, 2. the transmundane 出世間福, and 3. Samadhi 定福 ones. The worldly merits and virtues are bound for this material world, such as good fame, position, power, wealth and health, but they have nothing to do with the Buddhist transcend wisdom. As we can witness countless wealthy people around us, they are good-hearted and willing to help others but are not necessarily interested in any sorts of religion or Buddhism.

On the other hand, there are people devoting themselves to all sorts of charity and welfare activities to benefit others, and they are indeed strengthening their worldly merits and virtues for their future lives; they could be reborn in the blissful heavenly realm to enjoy life for an extremely long period of time, but they would still remain within the three realms (we will come to this subject once, 3. Samadhi is involved with the three realms).

2. The transmundane merits and virtues refer to the quoted phrases of the “Diamond Sutra”— …But you should realize that such men have not strengthened their root of merit under just one Buddha, or two Buddhas, or three, or four, or five Buddhas, but under countless Buddhas. There must be a certain root of merit linked with many Buddhas in the past enabling us to encounter the Buddha dharma in this life time and to have faith in the Buddhist teachings, as this chapter is titled “Rare is True Faith.”