Religion and Violence

Re: Religion and Violence

Postby Super Hans » 22 Oct 2011, 07:24

Hello heimoushu.

heimoushu wrote:All that you have posted attacks religion on a philisophical level.

Well, not entirely. Religion restricts and imposes restraints on freedom. Wars are fought over religion and because of religion. The furtherment of mankind has been and is being restricted by religion. Disease is being perpetuated through religion. These are all facts that are easily presented and backed up with evidence.

There are arguments for and against what you have said but you aren't interested in that are you?

I'm not sure what you mean? My arguments for or my arguments against what I have said? I am interested in thoughtful discussion, but I struggle to understand how taking your child to the beach as a foreigner, during a typhoon, and the fear of damnation and the delightful thoughts of eternal bliss promised by selfish religions tie in together. The example you have provided is a possible selfish act given to one human by another. Another is a selfish and false promise given to hundreds of millions of people. The two ideas are as comparable as apples and snakes.
Furthermore, you don't need to convince me that humans are selfish.

Charity starts at home and I mentioned foreigners because they are the people who annoy me the most because of their self-righteous BS.

May I ask if you are a foreigner yourself? From my point of view, labelling a group of people who you do not know, who are from vastly different backgrounds and countries in a community which is as transient as the expat community in Taiwan is perhaps not the best way to get into a discussion. Many foreigners may be from the same country as you, therefore making them, relative to you, not foreigners, but fellow countrymen.
I agree with you that charity does start at home, but I have never required a book of words to tell me that.

Perhaps you can tell us what BS foreigners are telling you, how it is self-righteous and why it is bullshit?

People who buy sofas or computers from friends and then have to be begged to actually pay for the stuff because they just don't pay what they owe. I have never had that problem with a Taiwanese friend and don't know any who have.

Well, perhaps you need to review your choice of friends. Many Taiwanese people continuously and consistently let me down on contracts, timekeeping and other promises. And I can't count the thousands of dollars that I have written off this year for various projects I have done for different companies and individuals who haven't paid me.

I have never met a foreign girl who got pregnant with a Taiwanese guy and then the guy fails to live up to his responsibility but I have met many foreigners who have. Granted I have seen many Taiwanese men being total pricks but just like the foreigners they are always those who seem to complain the most.

The number of foreign men who date Taiwanese girls is very high. Conversely, the number of foreign women who date Taiwanese men is very little, just because the number of foreign men in Taiwan outnumber the amount of foreign women in Taiwan substantially.

I have also never met a Taiwanese person who continuously cries over how bad religion is while there own life is in tatters but I have met many foreigners who do.

In what way? Why would anybody cry over religion while their life is in tatters? It's much easier to blame other people or external circumstances. I've never heard anybody talk over how bad religion is, except during a logical, well thought out discussion.

I'm sure you stay on the right side of the law, treat your family well and act responsibly, but there are way to many people who don't and cry the moment things don't go their way. There are so many more things wrong with the world than religion.

Actually, you're not sure of anything about me. But of all the people who don't act responsibly, how many have their lives dictated, to a certain extent, by religion?

WW1 and WW2 had nothing to do with religion.

Well - news just in.
In his book, Mein Kampf, a book admittedly that I have only read excerpts from, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatic, an anti-Semitic and a staunch believer in his country and in God:

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord"

In the pre-war years, Hitler's speeches identified him as anti-Jew.
And then there was the Holocaust, in which hundreds of thousands of Jews were slaughtered. Now I fail to see where religion does not fit into WW2.
The lead up and circumstances of the beginning of WW1 is slightly more complicated, but it was Garvrillo Princyp (?) who killed Franz Ferdinand after the Balkans war (in itself a war largely fought over different views on religion). The killing of Franz Ferdinand and his wife (sorry, I can't remember her name) triggered WW1, although the reasons for WW1, I grant you, are not largely attributable to religion. Garvrillo Princyp was known as a religious fanatic, I believe.

Global warming has nothing to do with religion (unless you feel that it might be a political farce or that God is punishing us)

Man made global warming is almost as much as a farce as religion, and even if it does exist, then the environment will get it's own back eventually. I see you mention political farce. It is interesting how religion and politics co-exist to give us more wartime excitement. Through the ages, religion has often been used as a political tool to scare and control the masses.

Religion does not deserve the bad reputation it is getting and many people thing they sound smart of they knock it, but then so be it.

It's not about sounding smart. It is about effectively presenting your case. People have different opinions about many things. I disagree with many different people about many, many different subjects. But unless you can give me evidence to the contrary and set up a good argument to try to convince me that there is a god and that religion is an overall force for good, then I'm afraid you're onto a loser.
You haven't presented a good argument: all you have managed to achieve is to whine about some foreigners you have come into contact with and try to convince me through semi-anecdotal tales that somehow these people and their actions have more of an impact on world affairs than religion does.
And ask yourself this question: If religion was such an all-encompassing force for good in the world, do you think the people you speak of would exist in the broken societies that we have today? Why have people descended into crime, greed and sin if religion is there to save, guide and uphold all the values a society should have?

I feel there are more important issues at hand and you don't seem to have responded to what I said in my previous post and I am sure that this will fall into some anti-religion chat long before you or anyone reply to what I said in this post.

You barely wrote anything meaningful in your initial post that I could respond to. What important issues?
As with every other post I respond to, I read it and respond as I go along. You are welcome to disagree with me - what would life be without conflict?

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Super Hans
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Re: Religion and Violence

Postby spitzig » 22 Oct 2011, 10:38

While I obviously condemn the Holocaust, it was not the reason for WWII.

The reasons the Germans were in it was for "elbow room". Basically, Germans, by their "natural inherent superiority" need more room to move around. This is another way of saying "I want more"-the usual reason for war. The desire for more was enhanced by their loss of WWI and extreme reparations for WWI. The confiscation of money/goods did fuel the engine of the war, however. The persecution provided an internal enemy to fight against, which was another type of fuel for the war. The Jews weren't the first internal enemy, either-the communists were.

The reason for the Allies being in the war was being attacked, or having allies attacked. The Allies didn't know about the Death Camps until they were already in the war. They kept quiet about them because revealing this information would reveal their source of intelligence.

I also don't see the relevance, but I've known more than Taiwanese woman with a boyfriend/husband who ditched his responsibility and his hiding in China.

Claiming that religions are bad because of the promise of escape and then heaven is an easily defended argument. For thousands of years, people have considered that religion is NECESSARY because of the threat "be good/bad and/or you'll be rewarded/punished in the afterlife". I think both arguments are weak. Both members of religions and non-members act badly and kindly at times.
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