Score another one for the religion of peace..

[bigduke6]

Yes, some good points.

To me it seems much simpler though.

I know smoking, drinking, junk food etc is bad for me. I choose to do these bad things. I am aware of the risks, yet I choose to do some of them.

If I die from one of them, it is a direct result of my actions.

To be blown up by a suicide bomber sitting on a bus in London would not be as a result of my actions, but rather the result of a terrorist with retarded beliefs.

The oil issue is one thing I agree 100% on. Once the last drop of oil is pumped out, I have a feeling most of those countries might become an ash heap.I mean, what else are a lot of them good for?

[GuyInTaiwan]

bigduke6: Well, obesity and other lifestyle diseases cost society a massive amount through the medical system. Also, if it were just adults suffering, I'd agree that it's self-inflicted. However, we're now seeing morbid obesity more and more common amongst children, including pre-adolescents.

I'm still not entirely sure how governments can prevent terrorist attacks though without really grabbing the bull by the horns and practising profiling in a much greater way, though I'm still not sure how successful that would be. I'm actually really surprised there haven't been a lot more attacks.

[cfimages]

BD6, go back and read the first response on page 19 and you'll see why I mentioned the ME. Your arguments gain nothing at all if you take something completely out of context.

[Confuzius]

Oh, ahem...excuse me, I guess I should state "Muslim countries in the Middle East".

Is that better? I thought it was implied. (the fact that the majority of Muslims are of Asian descent rather than Arabic or Persian is just as unrelated to what I said).

Well in that case it could be said that it's a Middle East problem not a Muslim problem. Israel was led by the likes of Ariel Sharon for a number of years who has a lot of blood on his hands from massacres of civilians, and is Netanyahu is the current leader so it appears that the extremists are on both sides of the divide in that region.

One major difference-Ariel Sharon and the likes are not religious.

And honestly I do not think Sharon or Netanyahu can be compared to Ahmadinejad who wishes to drive all the non-Arab Israelis into the ocean and sees the entire Western world as the "great Satan".

[Got To Be Kidding]

We are dangerously close to having this thread tossed into the International Politics forum.

The question that we are addressing is Islam. CFI brought up a valid point about muslims in south asia and southeast asia being different than the muslims in the middle east.

Which is a good question.

There are fewer terrorists coming from the muslim countries of south asia - although, I stress the word fewer. And there are even fewer terrorists coming from southeast asia.

However, there are terrorists coming from all those countries. Remember the Bali bombings? The bombings in Kashmir?

So, I agree that culture has an impact on how muslims react to the Quran. Also, there are pressures in the Middle East that do not exist to the same degree in southeast Asia.

You can see what happens when you put pressure on various religious groups. Pressure the Jewish community, and they emigrate. Pressure the Christian community, and they do much the same (although some Christian groups do react violently). The same goes for Buddhists, Hindus, Daoists, etc.

Pressure the muslims, and you get terrorism.

And, these pressures happen in many different ways. Resource pressures. Political pressures. All kinds of pressures.

Remember that the reason why we are discussing this, is because we are trying to get to bottom of the argument for why "99% of all muslims might not be terrorists, but 99% of all terrorists are muslim."

Trying to ignore this fact, is a dangerous fantasy.

[Confuzius]

We are dangerously close to having this thread tossed into the International Politics forum.

The question that we are addressing is Islam. CFI brought up a valid point about muslims in south asia and southeast asia being different than the muslims in the middle east.

Which is a good question.

There are fewer terrorists coming from the muslim countries of south asia - although, I stress the word fewer. And there are even fewer terrorists coming from southeast asia.

However, there are terrorists coming from all those countries. Remember the Bali bombings? The bombings in Kashmir?

So, I agree that culture has an impact on how muslims react to the Quran. Also, there are pressures in the Middle East that do not exist to the same degree in southeast Asia.

You can see what happens when you put pressure on various religious groups. Pressure the Jewish community, and they emigrate. Pressure the Christian community, and they do much the same (although some Christian groups do react violently). The same goes for Buddhists, Hindus, Daoists, etc.

Pressure the muslims, and you get terrorism.

And, these pressures happen in many different ways. Resource pressures. Political pressures. All kinds of pressures.

Remember that the reason why we are discussing this, is because we are trying to get to bottom of the argument for why "99% of all muslims might not be terrorists, but 99% of all terrorists are muslim."

Trying to ignore this fact, is a dangerous fantasy.

Still think Islam is in need of a massive reformation.

The Old Testament (as I have stated in this thread already) is way bloodier than the Koran. So what caused the Jews to "wrap their god of war in tephilin" (as an Israeli poet put it)...essentially it was the rabbis of the Talmud.

After the Bar Kochba revolt when the Jewish rebels got their asses handed to them by the Romans, the rabbis made all sorts of efforts to both curtail, and reinterpret a lot of the violent messages in the OT. In classical times Jews were not known as nerdy brainiacs or shrewd businessmen, but a violent warrior people (you read throughout the OT all the time when they encounter a new ethnicity, the ethnicity says something like "We have heard throughout the land that you guys open major cans of woopass on people who stand in your way." But that changed...it was an intentional change that came from within.

Something like this needs to come from within Islam.

[Got To Be Kidding]

Still think Islam is in need of a massive reformation.

The Old Testament (as I have stated in this thread already) is way bloodier than the Koran. So what caused the Jews to "wrap their god of war in tephilin" (as an Israeli poet put it)...essentially it was the rabbis of the Talmud.

After the Bar Kochba revolt when the Jewish rebels got their asses handed to them by the Romans, the rabbis made all sorts of efforts to both curtail, and reinterpret a lot of the violent messages in the OT. In classical times Jews were not known as nerdy brainiacs or shrewd businessmen, but a violent warrior people (you read throughout the OT all the time when they encounter a new ethnicity, the ethnicity says something like "We have heard throughout the land that you guys open major cans of woopass on people who stand in your way." But that changed...it was an intentional change that came from within.

Something like this needs to come from within Islam.

I agree, I think.

Your remarks are somewhat hard to agree to those of us who adhere to Jewish/Christian principles, but that's your view - so one must give allowances.

I do not want to debate your view of the bible. Someone else can do that.

But, you are essentially correct that transformation happened from within - or, from above, as we believers accept it. And yes, if Islam can experience this transformation, then it too will take it's place on the world stage as a religion of peace.

And, there are many in the muslim world who work hard to make this transformation happen. Unfortunately for the reformers, any lasting transformation of Islam will require a Mahdi (Islamic Messiah) to make that transformation. The Bahais thought that they had the Mahdi, but he was soundly rejected and took refuge in what is now Israel. Others may also come along and try to fit the 'Mahdi Role'.

Iran is certainly claiming that the Mahdi will be here within the next four years, or so. The idea of what they are prepared to do to 'make that happen' is frightening.

[Confuzius]

I agree, I think.

Your remarks are somewhat hard to agree to those of us who adhere to Jewish/Christian principles, but that's your view - so one must give allowances.

תודה רבה לא ידעתי מה אעשה בלי הרשות שלך

I do not want to debate your view of the bible. Someone else can do that.

אם תרצה נוכל
איך העברית התנכית שלך

You lived in Israel so I imagine you do not need to use google translate...ifya do, this conversation can end.

But, you are essentially correct that transformation happened from within - or, from above, as we believers accept it.

Depends on who the believers are. Jews say it was ALWAYS that way and there was no change (oral vs written torah). Dunno what the xians think.

[Got To Be Kidding]

Al lo davar. Ha machshev sh'li lo oseh evrit achshav. Ani diber b'kita gimel, b'regil. Aval, yoter zman chutz l'aretz, yoter ani shoke'ach. Ata yisraeli o mashahu?

M'eyfo utcha?

Do you WANT to know what the 'xians' think?

[Confuzius]

Al lo davar. Ha machshev sh'li lo oseh evrit achshav. Ani diber b'kita gimel, b'regil. Aval, yoter zman chutz l'aretz, yoter ani shoke'ach. Ata yisraeli o mashahu?

M'eyfo utcha?

Do you WANT to know what the 'xians' think?

I'm 'Merkin, been studying Hebrew (primarily Biblical and Rabbinic-along with a buttload of Babylonian, Jewish Aramaic and a sprinkle of Palestinian Jewish Aramaic) for around 24 years. Lived in Israel for a year when I was younger, (about sheesh...17 yrs ago).

In terms of what the xians think...I think we might be talking about 2 different things. I was referring to the different level of "violent theology" (for lack of a better term) found within Biblical (OT) and Rabbinic (Talmud, Midrash, later stuff) Judaism. I would IMAGINE the xians don't think the rabbinic stuff is divine at all (especially due to those pesky references to Jesus kicking it in a pot of boiling semen in Hell), but there may be differing levels of acceptance of Rabbinic Judaism by different forms of Christianity. If you feel like sharing the, please, by all means!

Now I think you were referring to the different levels of "violent theology" in the OT and NT. AFAIK, it has to do with god being all pissed off at everyone for being full of sin (original fall from the garden and whatnot), hence the Mosaic law was needed. But after the perfect sacrifice of the pure, sinless lamb (Christ Jesus) who fulfilled the entire law (which is debatable...but for another thread perhaps?) and died for everyone's sins, washing the stain thereof with his blood...god became a way more chill dude.

I have no doubt it is more complex than that, but is that it in a nutshell?