Score another one for the religion of peace..

[heimuoshu]

Now your statements show the "dehumanizing effects of assholism". This is obviously not a personal attack as you have established in your earlier posts.

Nowhere did I rip the religion to threads. If you actually decided to read the whole thread, and not just get involved to have a go at me you would see this.

In fact there are quite a few posts here that do rip the religion to threads. Some have compelling arguments, and some don't.

Start on page one next time.

However, I still stand by my belief that in the last 50 years, the vast majority of terrorist acts and killings have been made by Muslim extermists.

If you want to do something useful or disagree, get your calculator and start counting.

Regarding the ANC, I think most of their bombing was against state or military installations. I also believe they only targeted white South Africans as a political statement. Trying to determine if they flew planes into the world trade center or blew up any buses in London.
If fact I also think the black on black violence before the 94 elections had a larger death count then the number of whites killed.

Your sarcastic title is not an attempt to rip the religion. Give us a break. Must be the effect of "arsehole hypocrisy" - not a personal attack like you stated.
Yes the restaurants, shopping centres etc where the ANC attacks took place were all military and state targets. Maybe you should work on the facts a little. You are quite right that there was a lot more violence black on black.
I also know that GIT is against Muslims and religion in general but he doesn't get all teary eyed when a mod or anyone else makes a statement that hurts his feelings.
So since you are so "fact oriented" how many people in the past 50 years have died because the West (with what you and GIT calls the perfect system) turned a blind eye. Let's start in Rwanda. Would that be almost 800 000. No Muslims there or wait... I can't remember but then again, that can not be terror attacks cause they were blacks. Since you are so against what Fortigurn said about the bombs in WWII, don't you think that number should be added as an attack on civilians with the prime objective of achieving ones goals through terror and fear? No, off course not cause we won that war right? The winner can not be the terrorist. Terrorists are bad people.
Do you have any idea what obesity and alcoholism and diseases caused by smiking costs the tax payers in almost every country every year? Sure that's your choice. But the rest of us having to pay for it can not choose but at least we all get a vote in this secular world where we all have freedom of choice as long as we choose not to be Muslim. How would you have felt if you were a Muslim reading this thread. Would you consider your post a fair representation of the Muslim religion and world?
Amla (South African Cricketer) and Williams (Sonny Bill - Rugby player for NZ) are Muslims. Would you like to tell them that their religion scores points for the religion of peace because their people are responsible for the most deaths through terror attacks in the past fifty years because the other deaths are not called terror attacks by the papers you read?
Sure.
Am I trying to troll you? I don't know. Respond to the above and I'll tell you.

[bigduke6]

Wow! Such a long post. I must really get under your skin. And so much original thought too.

I do not get upset when people say nasty things to me. I just get pissed when the don't have the Jacobs to say it directly.

19 or so pages and then you get involved. What a joke.
Stick to your kindy threads going off at all the nasty foreigners teaching the kids. Leave the serious topics to the adults.

Well off on vacation now. Feel free to tell those at the kiddy table how you sent me packing with my tail between my legs.

[Got To Be Kidding]

Al lo davar. Ha machshev sh'li lo oseh evrit achshav. Ani diber b'kita gimel, b'regil. Aval, yoter zman chutz l'aretz, yoter ani shoke'ach. Ata yisraeli o mashahu?

M'eyfo utcha?

Do you WANT to know what the 'xians' think?

I'm 'Merkin, been studying Hebrew (primarily Biblical and Rabbinic-along with a buttload of Babylonian, Jewish Aramaic and a sprinkle of Palestinian Jewish Aramaic) for around 24 years. Lived in Israel for a year when I was younger, (about sheesh...17 yrs ago).

In terms of what the xians think...I think we might be talking about 2 different things. I was referring to the different level of "violent theology" (for lack of a better term) found within Biblical (OT) and Rabbinic (Talmud, Midrash, later stuff) Judaism. I would IMAGINE the xians don't think the rabbinic stuff is divine at all (especially due to those pesky references to Jesus kicking it in a pot of boiling semen in Hell), but there may be differing levels of acceptance of Rabbinic Judaism by different forms of Christianity. If you feel like sharing the, please, by all means!

Now I think you were referring to the different levels of "violent theology" in the OT and NT. AFAIK, it has to do with god being all pissed off at everyone for being full of sin (original fall from the garden and whatnot), hence the Mosaic law was needed. But after the perfect sacrifice of the pure, sinless lamb (Christ Jesus) who fulfilled the entire law (which is debatable...but for another thread perhaps?) and died for everyone's sins, washing the stain thereof with his blood...god became a way more chill dude.

I have no doubt it is more complex than that, but is that it in a nutshell?

Oy veh! Some of your word pictures are (gasp) choking me!

Good little Baptist Boyscout that I am... (I take umbrage, sir! Umbrage!)

Whew.

Now, trying to communicate theology to an 'outsider' can be difficult. Religion has internal validity but little external validity - i.e., it looks insane from the outside, but makes perfect sense from the inside.

(which of course, is why we are being a bit unfair towards Islam... but, I digress.)

By the way, I am attempting to explain the unexplainable - the purpose God created the Universe in the first place. So, this is my own personal view, and doesn't represent the views of anyone else. God strike me dead.

I think, as Christians and Jews, looking back at the sweep of history, we see God moving us along the path of 'enlightenment' - NOT a theological word, but I'm communicating with the 'outside' here. We start out as violent barbarians, and God 'works with us' until we become civilized.

In the beginnings of the Old Testament (tanakh), we tended to kill everyone, rape the women, enslave the children. Everyone did that. When Moses comes along, God says 'stop that'. Knowing that He will be less-than-successful in this, He says - you can do that only under these circumstances. (Remember when asked certain questions about the Law, Jesus answers - because of your 'hardness of heart' God gave you permission.)

Under Judaism, there is a belief that when Messiah (Mashiach) comes, he will bring a new law. This law will supersede the Mosaic law.

Under Christianity, we believe that Messiah (Jesus) came and brought a new law, and that law does supersede the Mosaic law - at least where indicated.

There is an argument between Judaism and Christianity over who the Messiah is/was. We say Jesus, and they say 'NOT'! There are a few who say 'Menachem Mendel Schneerson', but those are fighting words in some circles.

It's interesting to see that Judaism is NOT a monolithic religion. There are many, many streams of Judaism, and it would be insulting of me to characterize them too broadly. Suffice it to say that the most common element to Judaism is - to save a life. Life is Sacred under Judaism, and saving lives - any life - trumps even the law of Moses. Ultra-Orthodox Jews can violate the holiest laws of Moses by saving someone's life. (Jew, Arab, none-of-the-above)

Christians, as you are well aware by now, also come in different flavors. Catholicism tried to go the quasi-Jewish-Pagan-addyourownflavor route, and wound up killing several million people before they got reformed - somewhat-reformed. Others, nervously existed alongside Catholicism, were pacifistic and died by the millions at the hands of the Catholics. Fortigurn comes from one such stream. I come from another.

Now we sit, pretty much at the end of history, and look back on what God has done, and I find myself completely fascinated by it all. This millenia-old war between Good and Evil has played itself out in so many battlefields...

So, anyway, that's kinda my point. If Islam is to be a 'valid' religion, they must transform themselves, and I believe that this will require a 'second revelation' of some kind, from an Islamic Messiah - or Mahdi. Some Christians are predicting that this man will come - and he will be the Antichrist.

If the leadership of Iran is right, we'll see him sometime during the next four years.

The violent Xians, as you so aptly put it, are those that are NOT reading their bible. If you read your bible, as I do, all the way through - every year - you cannot be anything other than a pacifist. And, believe it or not, I am a pacifist - have been since I was a little tyke.

That doesn't mean that I won't kill anyone, but it does mean that I will do it under very strict circumstances. I guess that you might say that I'm an 'informed pacifist'.

Wanna kill me? fine. Touch my wife? You die.

There. I think that I laid it out. Or, did I?

EDIT: You were in Israel 17 years ago? I was there, and you never came for a visit. I feel insulted. And, I was in Jerusalem the whole time.

[Confuzius]

Oy veh! Some of your word pictures are (gasp) choking me!

Good little Baptist Boyscout that I am... (I take umbrage, sir! Umbrage!)

Whew.

First, the jesus kikkin it in a boiling pot of semen in hell quote IS in the talmud...i didn't make that up. You can probably find it in google (I believe it is in BT: Gittin-babylonian talmud tractate gittin..I do not remember the exact page) ifya want I can find it and give it toya in both the original and a translation...but I got no doubt its on the web.

I think god can handle my lingo. To open a teensy bit of a window into my soul, however, I will relate a story. When I was at a conference a couple of years ago to present a paper, I was having a beer with a few other scholars after the day's proceedings. One of them mentioned the fact that he sort of 'makes fun' or 'jests' about certain religious concepts when lecturing. He stated that it is a defense mechanism to save one from vulnerability when speaking about things that matter the most. I am not going to say anything more about the lengthy and violent relationship I have had with the divine throughout my life, but we are so chummy at this point he don't get pissed when I call him either an asshole or a chill dude.

By the way, I am attempting to explain the unexplainable - the purpose God created the Universe in the first place. So, this is my own personal view, and doesn't represent the views of anyone else. God strike me dead.

Thank you very much for being so upfront and giving with your own religious beliefs. If anything I say that follows sounds like derision, I apologize upfront. I was raised in the Talmudic logic/debate game...so sometimes I cannot help but sound argumentative when I am only attempting to spawn further inquiry into the truth.

I think, as Christians and Jews, looking back at the sweep of history, we see God moving us along the path of 'enlightenment' - NOT a theological word, but I'm communicating with the 'outside' here. We start out as violent barbarians, and God 'works with us' until we become civilized.

In the beginnings of the Old Testament (tanakh), we tended to kill everyone, rape the women, enslave the children. Everyone did that. When Moses comes along, God says 'stop that'.

Just a minor point, from a biblical standpoint, god had already said not to do some of them things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah
Just a Knowing that He will be less-than-successful in this, He says - you can do that only under these circumstances. (Remember when asked certain questions about the Law, Jesus answers - because of your 'hardness of heart' God gave you permission.)

Under Judaism, there is a belief that when Messiah (Mashiach) comes, he will bring a new law. This law will supersede the Mosaic law.

Thats an oversimplification. Its a big question in Judaism as what will happen to the mosaic law once the messiah comes. There's really no widely accepted answer. There's also no definitive answer what life will be like once the messiah comes (except for a few things like the resurrection of the dead, world peace and the jews bein god's badasses in the third temple). Like with most things...in Judaism, "some rabis say this and some rabbis say that". Same with life after death-there's no universally accepted belief in Judaism what happens to you after you die (A LOT of people do not realize this).

Under Christianity, we believe that Messiah (Jesus) came and brought a new law, and that law does supersede the Mosaic law - at least where indicated.

There is an argument between Judaism and Christianity over who the Messiah is/was. We say Jesus, and they say 'NOT'! There are a few who say 'Menachem Mendel Schneerson', but those are fighting words in some circles.

You are oversimplifying quite a bit here as well. First, WHAT messiah "is" differs between Judaism and Christianity as well. Christianity sees the messiah as the son of god, part of the trinity (and therefore, god). Jews see the messiah merely as a bloke, of flesh and bone, like any of us-- without any extra level of divinity nor familial relationship to god additional to what every other human has. Messiah means "anointed" relating to the old practice to anoint king's heads with oil (didyall know the words "ointment" and "anoint" were related because of this very fact?). So the only real prerequisite to be the messiah, well there are 3: 1. be a jew, 2. be a dude (and not a girl) and 3. be a descendant of king david. (i made the list up myself, not quoting...like I am sure he also must have his genetalia intact, and be right handed (for the opposite are quite problematic for the OT..but I am just pointing out that for mainstream xianity the messiah is divine, where jews believe he is entirely man without any level of divinity more than what you nor I have).

The Menachmen Mendel Schneerson thing is a whole different story...but does prove that for Jews the messiah is just a dude and not some aspect of the godhead. There have been plenty other messianic figures in Judaism besides good ole Mendy, he's just the most recent one.

It's interesting to see that Judaism is NOT a monolithic religion. There are many, many streams of Judaism, and it would be insulting of me to characterize them too broadly. Suffice it to say that the most common element to Judaism is - to save a life. Life is Sacred under Judaism, and saving lives - any life - trumps even the law of Moses. Ultra-Orthodox Jews can violate the holiest laws of Moses by saving someone's life. (Jew, Arab, none-of-the-above)

Not ENTIRELY true, (but mostly). First:
Whether or not a Jew can violate mosaic law to save the life of a gentile is actually debated (some rabbis say yes, some rabbis say no). Most WOULD tend to agree that its ok..but from a textual and historical point of view, it is not a universal standard.

Second:
There are three laws a Jew cannot break to save a life:
1. Immoral sexual behavior (man on man homosexuality...girl on girl is OK though (the OT only prohibits men from doing it with other men, says nothing about girl on girl). In terms of heterosexual relationships (excluding incest which falls into this category as well) it all depends on the status of the woman, ie if someone tells you "sleep with Bobbie's wife or I will kill you (or kill Bobby, or anyone)" you gotto say no and let either you or bobby or whomever die. OR if you are a married woman and someone threatens you (or anyone) with death lest you sleep with someone besides your husband...gotto bight the bullet and die. Rape, however, is not included in this category and one may rape someone of the opositte sex, who is not married...to save a life. And a married man can sleep with anyone (as biblically men could have many wives!) as long as she is a She and is not married).

2. Idolatry (you cannot worship another god to save yours, or someone else's life. why so many jews have been burned to death for refusing to kiss a cross)

3. Murder (you cannot murder someone else, to save someone from being murdered. This does NOT refer to self defense...self defense is fine. But if someone says "Go kill Danny or I will shoot your wife" you gotto let your wife die.)

Besides those three categories, however, life always wins and all laws can be broken!

Now we sit, pretty much at the end of history,

Yes, it is 2012!

and look back on what God has done, and I find myself completely fascinated by it all. This millenia-old war between Good and Evil has played itself out in so many battlefields...

Interesting take.

So, anyway, that's kinda my point. If Islam is to be a 'valid' religion, they must transform themselves, and I believe that this will require a 'second revelation' of some kind, from an Islamic Messiah - or Mahdi. Some Christians are predicting that this man will come - and he will be the Antichrist.

If the leadership of Iran is right, we'll see him sometime during the next four years.

The violent Xians, as you so aptly put it, are those that are NOT reading their bible. If you read your bible, as I do, all the way through - every year - you cannot be anything other than a pacifist. And, believe it or not, I am a pacifist - have been since I was a little tyke.

I have no doubt that many a xian who has killed, raped and plundered in the name of god could quote scripture like an evangelical preacher. It is quite easy to point the finger and say "Those bad people, well, they're not REALLY xians!" (or Muslims, or Jews...all religions do this). The Crusaders, the Inquisitionists, the Puritans..I would bet my life were pretty well versed in the good book. They just had a different method of interpreting it than you did. I prefer yours...but their ideology was rooted in the same book as yours is...whether you like that fact or not it is true. You can say they were wrong about their interpretation...but they were interpreting the same book as you are.

EDIT: You were in Israel 17 years ago? I was there, and you never came for a visit. I feel insulted. And, I was in Jerusalem the whole time.

I lived in Zefat (Safed, Tzfat...whatever) and I was 16...and would not have talked to you back then. You're a goy this conversation would not have happened back then.

[heimuoshu]

Wow! Such a long post. I must really get under your skin. And so much original thought too.

I do not get upset when people say nasty things to me. I just get pissed when the don't have the Jacobs to say it directly.

19 or so pages and then you get involved. What a joke.
Stick to your kindy threads going off at all the nasty foreigners teaching the kids. Leave the serious topics to the adults.

Well off on vacation now. Feel free to tell those at the kiddy table how you sent me packing with my tail between my legs.

Oh, don't worry you're miles from under my skin. I used to enjoy the kiddy table and look forward to returning when you grow up and leave the kiddy table for those of us who enjoy being there.
While you're at it, you should look at the news where a few soldiers urinated on dead Taliban soldiers. Does that mean we should start a thread calling it "Score one for the freedom fighters of the western world" or should we just accept that there are a few loose canons out there?

[Confuzius]

While you're at it, you should look at the news where a few soldiers urinated on dead Taliban soldiers. Does that mean we should start a thread calling it "Score one for the freedom fighters of the western world" or should we just accept that there are a few loose canons out there?

Pissin on dead people...no biggie.

Pissin on alive people...biggie.

Theyre dead...THEY DONT GIVE A FUCK

[heimuoshu]

While you're at it, you should look at the news where a few soldiers urinated on dead Taliban soldiers. Does that mean we should start a thread calling it "Score one for the freedom fighters of the western world" or should we just accept that there are a few loose canons out there?

Pissin on dead people...no biggie.

Pissin on alive people...biggie.

Theyre dead...THEY DONT GIVE A FUCK

Yeah the typical we are right approach. Maybe that is why they are trying to destroy the US. I have family members that have visited Iran and Iraq in the past few months and guess what, they don't hate white people and they don't hate non-muslims. They hate dumbass comments like the above which disrespects their dead, their traditions and their people. JIHAD!!!

[Confuzius]

While you're at it, you should look at the news where a few soldiers urinated on dead Taliban soldiers. Does that mean we should start a thread calling it "Score one for the freedom fighters of the western world" or should we just accept that there are a few loose canons out there?

Pissin on dead people...no biggie.

Pissin on alive people...biggie.

Theyre dead...THEY DONT GIVE A FUCK

Yeah the typical we are right approach. Maybe that is why they are trying to destroy the US. I have family members that have visited Iran and Iraq in the past few months and guess what, they don't hate white people and they don't hate non-muslims. They hate dumbass comments like the above which disrespects their dead, their traditions and their people. JIHAD!!!

Wow, you projected A LOT onto my post.

I just said doing things to dead bodies aint a big deal.

Didn't say nuthin bout the US being right, Iraqis hating white people or non Muslims or any mention of Jihad. Just said dead people are dead and dont give a crap what happens to their bodies.

My comment disrespects no one, just expresses my opinion. You're wound pretty tight it seems to have projected all of this onto my post. Drink a beer, smoke a bowl, shoot a load etc or something and read it again.

[heimuoshu]

While you're at it, you should look at the news where a few soldiers urinated on dead Taliban soldiers. Does that mean we should start a thread calling it "Score one for the freedom fighters of the western world" or should we just accept that there are a few loose canons out there?

Pissin on dead people...no biggie.

Pissin on alive people...biggie.

Theyre dead...THEY DONT GIVE A FUCK

Yeah the typical we are right approach. Maybe that is why they are trying to destroy the US. I have family members that have visited Iran and Iraq in the past few months and guess what, they don't hate white people and they don't hate non-muslims. They hate dumbass comments like the above which disrespects their dead, their traditions and their people. JIHAD!!!

Wow, you projected A LOT onto my post.

I just said doing things to dead bodies aint a big deal.

Didn't say nuthin bout the US being right, Iraqis hating white people or non Muslims or any mention of Jihad. Just said dead people are dead and dont give a crap what happens to their bodies.

My comment disrespects no one, just expresses my opinion. You're wound pretty tight it seems to have projected all of this onto my post. Drink a beer, smoke a bowl, shoot a load etc or something and read it again.

Sure mate.
Changing urinating to pissing doesn't say a thing.
Hitting the caps lock button doesn't say a thing.
Are you and bigduke secret lovers?
I didn't project a thing although you and some others might think so. I've read it, Ive had a few beers and my wife helped me to shoot a load cause I'm to incompetent to do it myself but you changing urinating to pissing on a corpse and then capitilizing "who cares" in nice adult language doesn't say a thing???
Whatever

[Confuzius]

Sure mate.
Changing urinating to pissing doesn't say a thing.
Hitting the caps lock button doesn't say a thing.
Are you and bigduke secret lovers?
I didn't project a thing although you and some others might think so. I've read it, Ive had a few beers and my wife helped me to shoot a load cause I'm to incompetent to do it myself but you changing urinating to pissing on a corpse and then capitilizing "who cares" in nice adult language doesn't say a thing???
Whatever

You definitely projected onto MY post (yay, capslock! is that going to offend you too?) as I actually do not agree with the things you projected onto my post.

So if I do not believe what YOU THINK (caps lock!) I believe and my post contained none of those things you ranted about IN RESPONSE (yet again!) to my post, projection seems an accurate assessment.

Maybe you're just in love with being offended (plenty of people like that out there) you are now even clinging to your offendedness. "Oh no, you actually meant what I say you meant, even if you did not mean to mean it, because it offended me!"

Makes total sense (note the SARCASM-yet again!)