Got To Be Kidding wrote:
Oy veh! Some of your word pictures are (gasp) choking me!
Good little Baptist Boyscout that I am... (I take umbrage, sir! Umbrage!)
First, the jesus kikkin it in a boiling pot of semen in hell quote IS in the talmud...i didn't make that up. You can probably find it in google (I believe it is in BT: Gittin-babylonian talmud tractate gittin..I do not remember the exact page) ifya want I can find it and give it toya in both the original and a translation...but I got no doubt its on the web.
I think god can handle my lingo. To open a teensy bit of a window into my soul, however, I will relate a story. When I was at a conference a couple of years ago to present a paper, I was having a beer with a few other scholars after the day's proceedings. One of them mentioned the fact that he sort of 'makes fun' or 'jests' about certain religious concepts when lecturing. He stated that it is a defense mechanism to save one from vulnerability when speaking about things that matter the most. I am not going to say anything more about the lengthy and violent relationship I have had with the divine throughout my life, but we are so chummy at this point he don't get pissed when I call him either an asshole or a chill dude.
Got To Be Kidding wrote:By the way, I am attempting to explain the unexplainable - the purpose God created the Universe in the first place. So, this is my own personal view, and doesn't represent the views of anyone else. God strike me dead.
Thank you very much for being so upfront and giving with your own religious beliefs. If anything I say that follows sounds like derision, I apologize upfront. I was raised in the Talmudic logic/debate game...so sometimes I cannot help but sound argumentative when I am only attempting to spawn further inquiry into the truth.
Got To Be Kidding wrote:I think, as Christians and Jews, looking back at the sweep of history, we see God moving us along the path of 'enlightenment' - NOT a theological word, but I'm communicating with the 'outside' here. We start out as violent barbarians, and God 'works with us' until we become civilized.
In the beginnings of the Old Testament (tanakh), we tended to kill everyone, rape the women, enslave the children. Everyone did that. When Moses comes along, God says 'stop that'.
Just a minor point, from a biblical standpoint, god had already said not to do some of them things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah
Just a Knowing that He will be less-than-successful in this, He says - you can do that only under these circumstances. (Remember when asked certain questions about the Law, Jesus answers - because of your 'hardness of heart' God gave you permission.)
Got To Be Kidding wrote:Under Judaism, there is a belief that when Messiah (Mashiach) comes, he will bring a new law. This law will supersede the Mosaic law.
Thats an oversimplification. Its a big question in Judaism as what will happen to the mosaic law once the messiah comes. There's really no widely accepted answer. There's also no definitive answer what life will be like once the messiah comes (except for a few things like the resurrection of the dead, world peace and the jews bein god's badasses in the third temple). Like with most things...in Judaism, "some rabis say this and some rabbis say that". Same with life after death-there's no universally accepted belief in Judaism what happens to you after you die (A LOT
of people do not realize this).
Got To Be Kidding wrote:Under Christianity, we believe that Messiah (Jesus) came and brought a new law, and that law does supersede the Mosaic law - at least where indicated.
There is an argument between Judaism and Christianity over who the Messiah is/was. We say Jesus, and they say 'NOT'! There are a few who say 'Menachem Mendel Schneerson', but those are fighting words in some circles.
You are oversimplifying quite a bit here as well. First, WHAT
differs between Judaism and Christianity as well. Christianity sees the messiah as the son of god, part of the trinity (and therefore, god). Jews see the messiah merely as a bloke, of flesh and bone, like any of us-- without any
extra level of divinity nor familial relationship to god additional to what every other human has. Messiah means "anointed" relating to the old practice to anoint king's heads with oil (didyall know the words "ointment" and "anoint" were related because of this very fact?). So the only real prerequisite to be the messiah, well there are 3: 1. be a jew, 2. be a dude (and not a girl) and 3. be a descendant of king david. (i made the list up myself, not quoting...like I am sure he also must have his genetalia intact, and be right handed (for the opposite are quite problematic for the OT..but I am just pointing out that for mainstream xianity the messiah is divine, where jews believe he is entirely man without any level of divinity more than what you nor I have).
The Menachmen Mendel Schneerson thing is a whole different story...but does prove that for Jews the messiah is just a dude and not some aspect of the godhead. There have been plenty other messianic figures in Judaism besides good ole Mendy, he's just the most recent one.
Got To Be Kidding wrote:It's interesting to see that Judaism is NOT a monolithic religion. There are many, many streams of Judaism, and it would be insulting of me to characterize them too broadly. Suffice it to say that the most common element to Judaism is - to save a life. Life is Sacred under Judaism, and saving lives - any life - trumps even the law of Moses. Ultra-Orthodox Jews can violate the holiest laws of Moses by saving someone's life. (Jew, Arab, none-of-the-above)
Not ENTIRELY true, (but mostly). First:
Whether or not a Jew can violate mosaic law to save the life of a gentile is actually debated (some rabbis say yes, some rabbis say no). Most WOULD tend to agree that its ok..but from a textual and historical point of view, it is not a universal standard.
There are three laws a Jew cannot break to save a life:
1. Immoral sexual behavior (man on man homosexuality...girl on girl is OK though
(the OT only prohibits men from doing it with other men, says nothing about girl on girl). In terms of heterosexual relationships (excluding incest which falls into this category as well) it all depends on the status of the woman, ie if someone tells you "sleep with Bobbie's wife or I will kill you (or kill Bobby, or anyone)" you gotto say no and let either you or bobby or whomever die. OR if you are a married woman and someone threatens you (or anyone) with death lest you sleep with someone besides your husband...gotto bight the bullet and die. Rape, however, is not included in this category and one may rape someone of the opositte sex, who is not married...to save a life. And a married man can sleep with anyone (as biblically men could have many wives!) as long as she is a She and is not married).
2. Idolatry (you cannot worship another god to save yours, or someone else's life. why so many jews have been burned to death for refusing to kiss a cross)
3. Murder (you cannot murder someone else, to save someone from being murdered. This does NOT refer to self defense...self defense is fine. But if someone says "Go kill Danny or I will shoot your wife" you gotto let your wife die.)
Besides those three categories, however, life always wins and all laws can be broken!
Got To Be Kidding wrote:Now we sit, pretty much at the end of history,
Yes, it is 2012!
Got To Be Kidding wrote:and look back on what God has done, and I find myself completely fascinated by it all. This millenia-old war between Good and Evil has played itself out in so many battlefields...
Got To Be Kidding wrote:So, anyway, that's kinda my point. If Islam is to be a 'valid' religion, they must transform themselves, and I believe that this will require a 'second revelation' of some kind, from an Islamic Messiah - or Mahdi. Some Christians are predicting that this man will come - and he will be the Antichrist.
If the leadership of Iran is right, we'll see him sometime during the next four years.
The violent Xians, as you so aptly put it, are those that are NOT reading their bible. If you read your bible, as I do, all the way through - every year - you cannot be anything other than a pacifist. And, believe it or not, I am a pacifist - have been since I was a little tyke.
I have no doubt that many a xian who has killed, raped and plundered in the name of god could quote scripture like an evangelical preacher. It is quite easy to point the finger and say "Those bad people, well, they're not REALLY xians!" (or Muslims, or Jews...all religions do this). The Crusaders, the Inquisitionists, the Puritans..I would bet my life were pretty well versed in the good book. They just had a different method of interpreting it than you did. I prefer yours...but their ideology was rooted in the same book as yours is...whether you like that fact or not it is true. You can say they were wrong about their interpretation...but they were interpreting the same book as you are.
Got To Be Kidding wrote:EDIT: You were in Israel 17 years ago? I was there, and you never came for a visit. I feel insulted. And, I was in Jerusalem the whole time.
I lived in Zefat (Safed, Tzfat...whatever) and I was 16...and would not have talked to you back then. You're a goy
this conversation would not have happened back then.