Reforming Tibetan Buddhism

Re: Reforming Tibetan Buddhism

Postby SauLan » 06 Feb 2012, 11:40

LhasaLhamo wrote:But it's common for women to be threatened by the lama/monk, to silence her, and if she dares come forward, the Tibetan or monastic community can make her out to be a liar or crazy person.


On what do you base this allegation, and are you talking about women in Tibet, China, India, the West, or all of these places?

I have never been threatened by a monk, and don't know anyone in my sangha who has. I think it's very hard to say that monks threatening people (women or otherwise) is common. Certainly if you are going to say such a thing, I would expect to see some supportive data, with all due respect.
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Re: Reforming Tibetan Buddhism

Postby Confuzius » 07 Feb 2012, 00:22

Zla'od wrote:Oh (Confuzius), you're talking about Shingon and such! Sorry, I didn't realize. That's a completely different kettle of fish from Tibetan Buddhism. I have no particular objection to it, though I might have some if I were better informed about it! My objections to (institutionalized) Chinese Buddhism arise from its parasitical social role. Tibetan Buddhism is suffused with authoritarian values. Both Chinese and Tibetan Buddhism promote superstition, reactionary politics, and regressive ethics (e.g., the gay issue). I am open to the possibility that some form of Buddhism may be better integrated with its host society, with its excesses kept in check, and with less tolerance for fortune-telling and other fraudulent practices.


Fair 'nuff

You did make sweeping comments about 'tantra', 'east Asian vinaya', the very term 'esoteric' when it comes to Buddhism, tantric ritual, etc...all of which are just as relevant to Shingon as to Tibetan Buddhism.
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Re: Reforming Tibetan Buddhism

Postby LhasaLhamo » 07 Feb 2012, 09:11

"Data"? Do you really think there's data on something so secret, where people have been threatened into silence? Were there data on the problem in the Catholic Church, before finally someone filed charges, and others began to step forward?

June Campbell wrote a book about how Kalu Rinpoche bullied her into being his "consort", and threatened her to keep quiet, there's some data. Are we limiting this to monks or are we including lamas in general? A monk raped a woman in Boston years ago, it was in the Boston Globe, look it up. It's important to encourage women who have been harmed by their teacher to go public and file criminal charges when possible, but going public can earn women (or male victims of teacher abuse) a lawsuit for libel. And the police can't do anything unless force was involved. Please read the thread, before posting questions that have already been addressed.
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Re: Reforming Tibetan Buddhism

Postby Zla'od » 07 Feb 2012, 09:21

He didn't "bully" her--she agreed willingly, being a starry-eyed devotee. Of course the relationship was inherently asymmetrical. The "threats" against blabbing came from others in his entourage, and amounted to warnings about someone who died (due, presumably, to magic / negative karma) after doing so. Campbell's major complaints are the institutionalized secrecy--she had little social support, and Kalu Rinpoche had a lot vested in his image as a celibate monk--and in the patriarchal culture of Tibetan Buddhism generally (the main point of her book).
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Re: Reforming Tibetan Buddhism

Postby SauLan » 07 Feb 2012, 23:21

LhasaLhamo wrote:"Data"? Do you really think there's data on something so secret, where people have been threatened into silence? Were there data on the problem in the Catholic Church, before finally someone filed charges, and others began to step forward?

June Campbell wrote a book about how Kalu Rinpoche bullied her into being his "consort", and threatened her to keep quiet, there's some data. Are we limiting this to monks or are we including lamas in general? A monk raped a woman in Boston years ago, it was in the Boston Globe, look it up. It's important to encourage women who have been harmed by their teacher to go public and file criminal charges when possible, but going public can earn women (or male victims of teacher abuse) a lawsuit for libel. And the police can't do anything unless force was involved. Please read the thread, before posting questions that have already been addressed.


It's just as important to not make sweeping allegations that "most Tibetan teachers force students into sex."

Standing up for logic and sanity does not equate to "promoting abuse." Unfounded allegations and outright exaggerations, in fact, pose a very real threat to women who need to come forward with genuine stories. "A monk raped a woman years ago?" Thousands of football players, math teachers, policemen, abuse counselors, airline pilots, plumbers and people of countless other vocations raped 90,000 women in 2008. Vocation really isn't the issue here.

I totally agree with you--it is important to encourage women who have been harmed by their teacher to go public. It is also important to stand against this bizarre effort to categorize Tibetan teachers as rapists.
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Re: Reforming Tibetan Buddhism

Postby LhasaLhamo » 10 Feb 2012, 11:53

SauLan wrote:It's just as important to not make sweeping allegations that "most Tibetan teachers force students into sex."
Don't put words in my mouth.
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Re: Reforming Tibetan Buddhism

Postby SauLan » 10 Feb 2012, 14:52

LhasaLhamo wrote:
SauLan wrote:It's just as important to not make sweeping allegations that "most Tibetan teachers force students into sex."
Don't put words in my mouth.


Your words were:

"But it's common for women to be threatened by the lama/monk..."

"As far as how widespread the problem is, it's everywhere in developed countries."

"It's not unusual for women to receive all manner of threats..."

"...celibate monks harassing women in the sangha for sex..."

"How widely are such cases tolerated?" By whom? By lamas, Rinpoches, monks? My conservative guess is--by the vast majority."

Your clear message is that Tibetan teachers and staff are sex maniacs, and almost no one is safe.
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Re: Reforming Tibetan Buddhism

Postby Confuzius » 10 Feb 2012, 16:11

SauLan wrote:
LhasaLhamo wrote:
SauLan wrote:It's just as important to not make sweeping allegations that "most Tibetan teachers force students into sex."
Don't put words in my mouth.


Your words were:

"But it's common for women to be threatened by the lama/monk..."

"As far as how widespread the problem is, it's everywhere in developed countries."

"It's not unusual for women to receive all manner of threats..."

"...celibate monks harassing women in the sangha for sex..."

"How widely are such cases tolerated?" By whom? By lamas, Rinpoches, monks? My conservative guess is--by the vast majority."

Your clear message is that Tibetan teachers and staff are sex maniacs, and almost no one is safe.


She's got you there.... :popcorn:
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Re: Reforming Tibetan Buddhism

Postby LhasaLhamo » 11 Feb 2012, 13:24

Not really. :snooty: She said I said "most lamas". I only said it was common. (I know what I said. I don't need to be told.) The young Kalu Rinpoche, for example, said one of his centers in France was completely abandoned by students because of this issue.

And just for the record, Campbell was shocked when Kalu Rinpoche propositioned her. She refused at first. She was a nun. She did later admit that under pressure, her ego got the better of her. How ironic. In a religion dedicated to subduing the ego, that ends up being the vulnerable point. :s
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Re: Reforming Tibetan Buddhism

Postby SauLan » 12 Feb 2012, 01:01

Not trying to "get" anybody.

I do object to the illogic, though.

It's not that there aren't poisoned apples; however, a forum about apples wouldn't logically reduce to threads on "the evils of poisoned Granny Smith apples." If this does happen, and one finds this same thread being introduced on multiple apple forums, one might suspect the fruitful tack of someone selling Fuji apples, or even oranges.
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