Reforming Tibetan Buddhism

[Confuzius]

Okay, there's more to tantric practice than visualizing a deity. You also have to chant his or her mantra, and do a bunch of other ritual-type stuff. (Tibetan Buddhism is extremely ritualistic.)

Yes, and I assume to become a mechanical engineer you may have to "do some math". That is about as detailed information about Esoteric ritual as you are giving here. So you clearly know very little about it. That's fine, I do not know much about quantum mechanics, but I am not so arrogant as to act as if I do.

There are also arcane lists of vows, and everything comes with an entrenched commentarial tradition that is received as equally sacrosanct. Later on, you MIGHT get permission to visualize being the deity, and having sex with a woman half your size (or actually do it--I mean, Buddhistically). Or learn how to control your body temperature, or the weather. Or be told that actually, the world around you is pure and perfect, and all those rituals and teachings don't really matter after all.

I think you should actually know something about a subject before judging it, or especially spouting off about it. You could actually read a book or two on Esoteric Buddhism you know, since you are just making yourself sound extremely ignorant. If you want some suggestions I could give you some...you can even find many of these scholarly works for free in pdf format online. If, however, you just want to keep blowing hot air outta your pie hole by all means continue, but your ignorance is kinda entertaining...especially since you do not seem aware of your ignorance.

There's lots more, I realize, but what did I leave out that you would consider especially relevant, that might redeem the tradition from being a big waste of time? (And that you won't get reborn in hell for revealing, of course.)

No more than I left out about being a mechanical engineer. Did I leave anything especially important out?

It is my contention--based, no doubt, on my own nescience--that none of this is really salvific. There is no magic in Tibetan Buddhism. It is just another religion. Just as prayer does not really work for Baptists, neither does meditation for Buddhists.

Ah, here's your real opinion, no wonder you mock...you think "religion is dumb". Why reform Buddhism at all if its so stupid and useless?

Buddhism's main significance is as a set of social practices and identities.

So you think Buddhism (the religion, not the forumosa poster) is total crap and a waste of time. You are entitled to your opinion...but I have to say your opinion on Buddhism (in my esteem) is about as meaningful as a fundamentalist Baptist's view of evolution; you fundamentally discount it, dismiss its value and therefore your opinion is essentially worthless due to its ignorant bias.

[Zla'od]

I wouldn't call it "total crap" or a waste of time, necessarily. Religions have many roles, some of them potentially beneficial, and are arguably universal (and thus inescapable). The trick is to keep the priests from taking over and making off with all the resources. I can even see how religious beliefs might be useful, up to a point, even though I do not believe in them myself.

I have read a book or two about Tibetan Buddhism, tantra, stuff like that, and still think it's just another religion. Some sects attempt to argue for their beliefs, up to a point (hence all the debate), but in the end they require depend upon metaphysical assumptions that I do not share, and point to authorities which I do not recognize. You think me ignorant and arrogant, and perhaps I am. I think I'm just being reasonable, despite certain liberties of tone. After all, if we were talking about some other religion (the Baptists, for instance), you would sound like me.

Tantric practice strikes me as basically useless, though not noticeably moreso than posting on the internet. I am willing to be persuaded otherwise, if you can bring yourself to discuss the issue rationally, but will understand if you find this futile and/or sacrelegious.

[Confuzius]

I have read a book or two about Tibetan Buddhism, tantra, stuff like that, and still think it's just another religion. Some sects attempt to argue for their beliefs, up to a point (hence all the debate), but in the end they require depend upon metaphysical assumptions that I do not share, and point to authorities which I do not recognize. You think me ignorant and arrogant, and perhaps I am. I think I'm just being reasonable, despite certain liberties of tone. After all, if we were talking about some other religion (the Baptists, for instance), you would sound like me.

Actually I would sound absolutely nothing like you as I would not assume because, how did you put it, "I have read a book or two" about it I would be knowledgeable enough to make sweeping statements about it and categorize the entire religion based on the "book or two" I have read. I would be a lot more humble and actually try to learn rather than talk about how I wished the religion to change (a religion I knew pretty much nothing about, having only read "a book or two" about). So no, I would sound nothing like you in a discussion about the Baptists.

Tantric practice strikes me as basically useless, though not noticeably moreso than posting on the internet.

Really? I would imagine you would spend a lot of time in tantric practice then since you post here so often.

I am willing to be persuaded otherwise, if you can bring yourself to discuss the issue rationally, but will understand if you find this futile and/or sacrelegious.

I am not here to try and persuade anyone in any direction, (that is evidently for you, Buddhism and Lahmo to do) ignorance is a pet peeve of mine, however and seeing you make all sorts of incorrect statements regarding ritual and vinaya I could not help but say something. At least you are honest and admit that you have ONLY "read a book or two", though evidently you think those books must have been absolutely amazing since they have granted you the in depth and detailed knowledge to explain and discount an entire religious movement based on their content. Actually, multiple religious movements for you felt qualified to comment about East Asian Tanrtric Buddhism (not only Tibetan). I really should get my hands on that/those "book or two" you have read...

In terms of such a discussion being sacrilegious, that's not really a concern of mine. I have never met a Buddhist who had the "pearls before swine" mentality.

[Zla'od]

Well, it might have been more than two. Are books, then, an adequate source of information on these things? Or better yet, rather than fuming and going through displays of mock outrage, you might simply name the book, or state the information that you feel should rescue Buddhism from the charges I have made against it. After all, I might be a bodhisattva in disguise, arguing for a lower tenet system in order to encourage the philosophical development of sentient beings of lesser capacity like you! (raspberry)

For the sake of comparison, how many books on Scientology do you think we need to read, before our opinions about it can be considered well-informed?

[LhasaLhamo]

I thought it would be nice if, at the very least, sexual violence could be eliminated from Tibetan Buddhism. The tradition shouldn't create suffering, it's supposed to be about ending suffering. Some of you may get tired of me harping on this, but really, what good is a tradition if students can't feel safe?

I think you mean "sexual coercion" not "sexual violence", at least in the cases of women in Western dharma centres.
The kind of sexual abuse that Kalu Yangsi claims to have been subject to while a child may be a different matter, however.

I mean both coercion and violence. Rape happens, of boy novices and women disciples.

Talk about observing the Vinaya! How about eliminating sex from TB altogether, except for non-monastics? Monks with vows of celibacy should observe their vows, no excuses.

I agree, of course. I don't know what kind of monks you have been in contact with, but my experience has mainly been with Gelugpa monks.
Although they may increasingly be giving up the celibate life, as they do so, they also give up the monastic life.
In most cases it does not appear to have anything to do with tantra - it's just about living a more normal lifestyle.

The Gelug do practice tantra with a consort, they're no different than the other sects in that respect, although maybe until recent times they were better at hiding it from the public. I can't say how widespread the consort practice is among the Gelug, but HHDL talks about it awfully matter-of-factly. He says to practice tummo, to raise the inner fire, a consort is needed ("The Dakini's Warm Breath", by Judith Simmer-Brown), and tummo is a fairly common practice.

So if you know of any monks who have had sex but still wear monastic robes, I would have thought it was just a simple case of the woman concerned coming forward and saying "I had sex with that monk". I don't see how the monk concerned could then continue to pretend being a monk.
At least not in the Gelug tradition that I'm familiar with.
(What went on in Tibet in the past may be a different matter.)

OK, we're placing what went on in Tibet in a separate category, even for the Gelug? I'm not sure why, but ok.
If a woman "outs" an errant Gelug monk, it's not going to have any effect unless she does so in the monk's home country or community. The monks are aware that whatever they do while teaching abroad won't get noticed by anyone back home. It's interesting, though--some are talking more openly about the tantric side of the practice. HHDL for example has discussed tantric technique in several books, and Tsem Tulku (Gelug, living in Malaysia teaching Chinese Buddhists there) discusses it in a video I posted a link to earlier. I'm not sure what this new trend toward letting the cat out of the bag is about.

But it's common for women to be threatened by the lama/monk, to silence her, and if she dares come forward, the Tibetan or monastic community can make her out to be a liar or crazy person. These things aren't as neat and tidy and simple as others think. It's not so easy to stand up and denounce someone.

Although a friend just told me that when she was studying in Dharamsala with Geshe Ngawang Darghey at the Tibetan library/archives there, a nun (Western) did stand up at some point during a class and said "Geshe-la" had been using her for his own masturbation (the monastic way, if you know how that works). That's extremely unusual, but Geshe-la promptly took a teaching job in New Zealand as a result, and from there went to the US to teach. I agree with you, more women need to defy any threats or other circumstances, and speak out.

Children should be left out of the equation altogether.

Part of the problem here is that a Tibetan child's education choices might be between the monastery or nothing. This is changing, however.
Another problem is the monastic requirement to memorise hundreds of pages of text.
Not only is this easier for kids, it's also easier for teachers to get young kids, rather than young adults, to do it.

Thus, perhaps another reform needed by Tibetan Buddhism is in the area of the monastic curriculum, so that it becomes possible for an mature person to make an informed decision to take up the monastic life and its attendant studies. As it stands, monastic studies necessarily have to be commenced at a young age.

I wouldn't say they necessarily have to begin at a young age. A young adult with good concentration and motivation can learn very fast. And curriculum reforms are underway in a few Gelug monasteries; the DL has sent young monks to study science at US universities, so they can introduce science, geography, etc. into the monastic curriculum.

But that wouldn't solve the problem of powerless children being at the mercy of sexually predatory older monks. Although having a modern curriculum would benefit monks who later leave the monastic life, in the final analysis I don't think that's the direction reforms should take. I don't think children should be housed with (ostensibly) celibate adults. Some human rights workers say children shouldn't be institutionalized at all, unless absolutely necessary. The Gov't-in-Exile could make an effort to do outreach to international aid organizations and NGO's to foster economic development projects, so Tibetan families could afford to keep their kids at home.

I've heard condoms are free throughout India, anyway. Why aren't Tibetan families practicing birth control?

[Zla'od]

...and Tsem Tulku (Gelug, living in Malaysia teaching Chinese Buddhists there) discusses it in a video I posted a link to earlier.

I didn't realize you guys had been talking about my old friend Mr. Bugayeff! (He was born in Taipei, you know.) I'll have to find that video. My gay-dar registers him as a total flaming homo, so I doubt he'd be engaging in tantric ritual sex. He's pretty firmly in the Pabongka tradition which names Vajrayogini as Tsongkhapa's secret practice. Let me see if I can find this one image of VY that I remember...

[Confuzius]

Well, it might have been more than two. Are books, then, an adequate source of information on these things? Or better yet, rather than fuming and going through displays of mock outrage, you might simply name the book, or state the information that you feel should rescue Buddhism from the charges I have made against it.

I don't see the point. If I ranted against evolution and my rants were entirely uninformed, contained a number of inaccuracies, say for example, "I have never seen a monkey turn into a person" (which displays a total misunderstanding) where would one begin?

If you DO actually wish to learn, try "Shingon: Japanese Esoteric Buddhism" by Taiko Yamasaki (available all over the internet for free), "Kukai and His Major Works" by Yoshito S. Hakeda (also available for free ALL over the place).

There's of course also "Esoteric Buddhism and the Tantras of East Asia" or "Tantric Buddhism in East Asia" both can be found online...but a bit harder. Worth the money...the 2nd is pretty cheap (the first is like 350 USD).

or if you actually are inclined to spend a penny or two, "The Weaving of Mantra: Kűkai and the Construction of Esoteric Buddhist Discourse" by Ryűichi Abé.

These are good starters. If you are actually interested in knowing something about what comes outta your pie hole. If not, you can keep spouting a bunch of ignorant crap.

For the sake of comparison, how many books on Scientology do you think we need to read, before our opinions about it can be considered well-informed?

Lets say 15...sounds like a good number.

[LhasaLhamo]

...and Tsem Tulku (Gelug, living in Malaysia teaching Chinese Buddhists there) discusses it in a video I posted a link to earlier.

I didn't realize you guys had been talking about my old friend Mr. Bugayeff! (He was born in Taipei, you know.)

Tsem Tulku has a fascinating personal history. He seems like quite a character.

In a video on the nature of mind, toward the end, he discusses the nature of mind during the orgasms that result from practicing seminal retention (tantric sex). I posted the link either here, or on the "TB Isn't Buddhism" thread, in the last pages somewhere.

[LhasaLhamo]

...and Tsem Tulku (Gelug, living in Malaysia teaching Chinese Buddhists there) discusses it in a video I posted a link to earlier.

I didn't realize you guys had been talking about my old friend Mr. Bugayeff! (He was born in Taipei, you know.)

Tsem Tulku has a fascinating personal history. He seems like quite a character. I like his teaching style.

In a video on the nature of mind, toward the end, he discusses the nature of mind during the orgasms that result from practicing seminal retention (tantric sex). I posted the link either here, or on the "TB Isn't Buddhism" thread, in the last pages somewhere.

[Zla'od]

Oh (Confuzius), you're talking about Shingon and such! Sorry, I didn't realize. That's a completely different kettle of fish from Tibetan Buddhism. I have no particular objection to it, though I might have some if I were better informed about it! My objections to (institutionalized) Chinese Buddhism arise from its parasitical social role. Tibetan Buddhism is suffused with authoritarian values. Both Chinese and Tibetan Buddhism promote superstition, reactionary politics, and regressive ethics (e.g., the gay issue). I am open to the possibility that some form of Buddhism may be better integrated with its host society, with its excesses kept in check, and with less tolerance for fortune-telling and other fraudulent practices.