Discussion of heaven, hell, & immortal soul

Re: Discussion of heaven, hell, & immortal soul

Postby Tempo Gain » 18 Apr 2012, 00:13

Fortigurn wrote:
It completely negates the idea of the person continuing to survive after death, such that they are conscious although being, and necessitates the complete resuscitation of the body; resurrection (which you can call 'afterlife' if you like, though I think a more accurate description is 'restoration to life'). You're either alive (you have a functioning body), or you're not alive (your body has died). You can't be conscious if your body is dead, and you can't have an 'afterlife' while your body is dead.


Thanks, that's very interesting.

Fortigurn wrote:No, I'm quite enthusiastic about the idea of a resurrection. I'm just not going to cry my eyes out if it doesn't happen (obviously), and conversely the idea of annihilation doesn't really fuss me. I'm a small bag of temporarily animated chemicals, only marginally different from the dirt on which I walk and to which I will return one day. On the broader cosmic scale of things, I don't even register. I quite like the idea of living forever, but the idea of no longer existing at some point isn't terrifying to me.


Well said. Are you sure many religious people subscribe to this line of thought? :) It's news to me. Don't get me wrong, I like it. It sounds almost like you may as well be religious as be an atheist.

Though obviously resurrection makes sense this way, eh. Now you've got me scanning the bible again. Oh dear :)
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Re: Discussion of heaven, hell, & immortal soul

Postby bob » 18 Apr 2012, 00:25

There is absolutely NO question that the Bible with all it's references to eternal this, everlasting that, firey torments, eternities in heaven and all the rest of it has contributed to a good many people believing in heaven and hell, and by extension an eternal soul. We don't need a philosophy lecture to prove it, and we scarcely need a history lesson. The fact that you STILL have to explain that not all christians believe it is almost proof enough. The Anglican church abandoned the notion of hell in 1940. Big deal. The miracle there is that it took them that long to figure out that is what God intended, if in fact you even believe it is what he intended. The Bible is so filled with contradictions you can use it to argue any position. I just read it and the impression I came away with is that everyone would be judged and sent one of two places.

"But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed." (Rom. 2:5)
"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." (Rev. 20:12)

I am assuming that the first quote is referring to everyone since someone with a repentant heart actually would be Christian, but who knows? (Who EVER knows what the hell Christianity is on about?)

If there isn't some continuim of consciousness (or at least some kind of continuim of "being")what difference would it make where "you" went? It wouldn't be you, and if it "was" you it'd be your "soul" as people generally conceive of it. The English version of the Bible is filled with references to heaven and hell, with no implied continuim of consciousness such referances are meaningless. That is likely why people think one is assumed? What's your take on that professor?

The quotes I gave weren't intended to be great examples of scholarship either but examples of what a good many people still think.

Anyway, regardless of how you end up interpreting the Bible after all these centuries, my point is this...

It makes no sense that a loving, all powerfull god ( a fairly standard accepted definition I think although the Bible actually describes something A LOT different) would allow such a confusing doctrine to have existed and fucked people up for as long as it has.

Do you agree with that? To remain even remotely logical you must. I know you are very intelligent, and it doesn't seem like you are crazy. In fact I enjoy your posts immensely. However your arguments in this thread are neverthelss designed to show that my essentially indisputable position is essentially wrong. (If it was wrong we wouldn't be having THIS conversation.) On the basis of that I concluded you must be lying.

Here's some crap I lifted off the internet as an example of what Christian people think.


http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/W ... t_the_Soul

Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive at the time of this statement? No. So how can they be described as living? Only if they are actually immortal souls that were alive after death (and prior to their physical resurrection in the future). If they are immortal souls, immaterial beings, then the passage begins to make sense.

Matthew 17:1-3
And six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and brought them up to a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

In this scene from the scripture, Jesus is talking to Elijah and Moses. They obviously died long before Jesus was born, so how could this scene be true unless they exist truly as immortal souls, and not simply as physical bodies? Here once again we have another example of disembodied life after death, something that is ONLY possible if we exist as living immortal souls.

Luke 16:19-31
"Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' And he said, 'Then I beg you, Father, that you send him to my father's house - for I have five brothers - that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them,' But he said, 'No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent! But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'"

In this passage, the dead are repeatedly described as performing actions that are characteristic of the living. But that’s not all! God tells the rich man that it is at least hypothetically possible that the dead could “go” to the living. Once again, the dead are not dead. How can this be? It can only be possible if the physically dead are still immaterially alive. That’s why as Christians, we recognize and believe that what we are living souls who are immortal by nature.
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Re: Discussion of heaven, hell, & immortal soul

Postby zender » 18 Apr 2012, 00:39

Here's a video of a guy who wrote a book about his 23 minutes in Hell. He sounds very knowledgable about the Bible and he speaks well. He's a conservative guy with a nice looking wife, and they don't watch dark movies . . . so there's no reason in his mind why he might have had a nightmare.

Anyway, after a Sunday night prayer session back in November of 1998, they went home and went to bed. He didn't have a near-death experience, but he woke up at 3:00 and his wife found him distraught at 3:23 convinced that he'd seen Hell in a vision.

His discription of Hell begins at the 10:40 mark.


I just think he had a terrible dream. Maybe he'd been reading Revelations or some other scary part of the Bible earlier in the evening, but I don't doubt that he sincerely believes what he is saying.

Anyway, I think Hell is a "real place" for a lot (40-60%?) of Christians, and I think Heaven is a "real place" for the vast majority (90+%?).
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ETA- I'm not sure if a person's vision is more credible if it happens now (and you can get it straight from the person's mouth), or if it happened thousands of years ago in a time when miracles and talking with God were apparently more common. Is it possible that if this man had lived thousands of years ago, he would have been considered a prophet, and his story might have made it into the Bible?

Also, at the 22:22 mark of the video, he mentions that when he was a surfer, a fellow surfer got his leg bitten off. There were about 30 tiger sharks in the water, and he knelt down on his board to keep his legs out of the water. But a shark came along, bit his board in two, and dragged him under. Afterwards the shark let him go; he noticed that there were no marks at all on his leg, and he called it a miracle of God. So, does this make his story of Hell more or less credible to you? It seems that this shark attack might be something you could check. Shark attacks that result in loss of limbs are rare enough in Florida, so it should have been reported. If you find that there is a newspaper report that backs up his story, does that make his story more believable than some other big fish story from the distant past?
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Re: Discussion of heaven, hell, & immortal soul

Postby bob » 18 Apr 2012, 00:46

No, no, didn't you get the memo? Back in the middle ages people started reading the Bible for themselves and realized there was no mention of soul or hell etc.
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Re: Discussion of heaven, hell, & immortal soul

Postby antarcticbeech » 18 Apr 2012, 00:52

zender wrote:Anyway, I think Hell is a "real place" for a lot (40-60%?) of Christians, and I think Heaven is a "real place" for the vast majority (90+%?).


The Christian side of my family most certainly believe both are real places. And I'm going to Hell, apparently. :lol:
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Re: Discussion of heaven, hell, & immortal soul

Postby zender » 18 Apr 2012, 10:15

Sorry to hear about that. :neutral:
Just wondering if your future in Hell is the reason for choosing "antarctic" as part of your current name.
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Re: Discussion of heaven, hell, & immortal soul

Postby antarcticbeech » 18 Apr 2012, 11:15

zender wrote:Sorry to hear about that. :neutral:
Just wondering if your future in Hell is the reason for choosing "antarctic" as part of your current name.


Yeah, well, it's better than 'snowball'. :cry:

================================

Just did a quick search for belief in heaven and hell.

Since 1997, belief in heaven has ranged between 72% and 83%. According to Gallup's most recent May 2004 Values and Beliefs poll*, 81% of Americans currently say they believe in heaven, 10% are unsure, and 8% do not believe. As expected, regular churchgoers are more likely than others to say they believe: Virtually all (98%) of those who attend church weekly do so versus 89% who attend "nearly weekly" and 64% of those who say they attend church seldom or never.

...

From 1997 to 2004, belief in hell has ranged between 56% and 71%. The 2004 data reveal that 70% of Americans overall believe in hell, while 12% are not sure and 17% do not believe in hell. Again, the percentage is much higher among regular churchgoers: 92% of those who attend weekly believe in hell, as do 74% of those who attend nearly weekly and just half (50%) of those who attend church seldom or never.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/11770/eternal-destinations-americans-believe-heaven-hell.aspx
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Re: Discussion of heaven, hell, & immortal soul

Postby Rockefeller » 19 Apr 2012, 14:42

Fortigurn wrote:
Rockefeller wrote:So you're saying in the case of your "future ressurection" or alternate reality, you'd likely just be apathetic?


No, I'm quite enthusiastic about the idea of a resurrection. I'm just not going to cry my eyes out if it doesn't happen (obviously), and conversely the idea of annihilation doesn't really fuss me. I'm a small bag of temporarily animated chemicals, only marginally different from the dirt on which I walk and to which I will return one day. On the broader cosmic scale of things, I don't even register. I quite like the idea of living forever, but the idea of no longer existing at some point isn't terrifying to me.


Well said. At the end of the day we're all just puddles of protein. It's what you do with your life and consequently leave behind that's more likely to last. Maybe that's why for thousands of years mankind has been so obsessed with legacy.
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Re: Discussion of heaven, hell, & immortal soul

Postby Chris » 19 Apr 2012, 19:23

zender wrote:I just think he had a terrible dream. Maybe he'd been reading Revelations or some other scary part of the Bible earlier in the evening, but I don't doubt that he sincerely believes what he is saying.

I'm thinking a similar thing. He mentions being unable to move and seeing demon-like figures: common symptoms of sleep paralysis. May well be influenced by his readings of scriptural descriptions of hell.
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Re: Discussion of heaven, hell, & immortal soul

Postby finley » 19 Apr 2012, 19:32

No, I'm quite enthusiastic about the idea of a resurrection. I'm just not going to cry my eyes out if it doesn't happen (obviously), and conversely the idea of annihilation doesn't really fuss me. I'm a small bag of temporarily animated chemicals, only marginally different from the dirt on which I walk and to which I will return one day. On the broader cosmic scale of things, I don't even register. I quite like the idea of living forever, but the idea of no longer existing at some point isn't terrifying to me.

Yes, I think it's quite common. The logic goes something like this: if I'm wrong, I haven't lost anything; at best, I'll have left behind some favourable impression of my existence. I will die just the same as any atheist. It'll be a disappointment, but since I'll be dead and no soul will exist to be disappointed, that's no big deal.
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