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Is the religious indoctrination of children unethical?

Re: Is the religious indoctrination of children unethical?

Postby jimipresley » 29 May 2012, 04:08

Vay wrote:
jimipresley wrote:
Vay wrote:
Jimipresley wrote:That teacherlin! Dude!


You may think what he said was great, but he's flat-out wrong.

Are you perchance Taiwanese? Do you not get sarcasm?


:oops: Shit sorry man. Tone is hard to get in print and when you've had a few people banging on you, you tend to get defensive, y'know?

No worries. I've spent most of my life screaming and shouting, nay, RAILING against the indoctrination of children into superstition. :bow:
You can live here and have a great life and not be the least bit into living the local life. Clowns will try to diss you for it saying you gotta get down with the program, but fuck em, treat this place like a buffet and yous be on a diet. Take what you want and nothing extra, slam those oysters, but leave the bread sticks and dinner rolls behind. - Deuce Dropper

I'm much more of a nasty rotter in real life, especially with vapid or vacuous verbiage from the ill read & intellectually challenged. - TheGingerMan

Don't be a cheap cunt. - Deuce Dropper

This post was recommended by Vay (29 May 2012, 05:08)
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Re: Is the religious indoctrination of children unethical?

Postby Vay » 29 May 2012, 05:10

jimipresley wrote:
Vay wrote:
jimipresley wrote:
Vay wrote:
Jimipresley wrote:That teacherlin! Dude!


You may think what he said was great, but he's flat-out wrong.

Are you perchance Taiwanese? Do you not get sarcasm?


:oops: Shit sorry man. Tone is hard to get in print and when you've had a few people banging on you, you tend to get defensive, y'know?

No worries. I've spent most of my life screaming and shouting, nay, RAILING against the indoctrination of children into superstition. :bow:


Good on YOU mate! :notworthy: And btw, let's be honest: I really don't get sarcasm!
"So given that we all agree that the world is warming, would it be unlikely to have heat waves outpace cold fronts by 3:1? Where's the Gotcha! in that?" - Fred Smith
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Re: Is the religious indoctrination of children unethical?

Postby urodacus » 29 May 2012, 07:05

jimipresley wrote:I just want to make a small point here. Little kids are far more likely to be entertained by whimsical fantasy rather than cold scientific fact, right? If you were 5 years old, what would you rather be listening to? Noah's animals marching into an almighty ark, two by two, prior to the Great Deluge? Moses parting the Red Sea, liberating the Israelites and vanquishing the evil Egyptians? Daniel defying all odds in the lion's den? OR: Darwin's "Tinamou egg" and Dawkins' "The Extended Phenotype"?

Now that is what I call subtle indoctrination. :wink:



Are you saying that people who believe in Noah and the Ark have the minds of five-year-olds?

Jimi, how could you?
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Re: Is the religious indoctrination of children unethical?

Postby zender » 29 May 2012, 07:47

I think five is a great age to be teaching your kids the difference between real and make believe. One site that my girls used to love had Tina's World.
-------------------
It's Tina's World la la la la la la
It's Tina's World la la la la la la
Is it real?
Or is it make believe?
It's Tina's World la la la la la la
------------------
Hello! I'm Tina! I like telling stories that are make believe, but I also like telling stories that are real.
Things that are make believe couldn't really happen. Things that are real could. For instance, when I tell stories about being a flying princess, those stories are make believe. But when I tell stories about going to the store, or what I did at school, those stories are real.

Here's another story.

I was flying around on my pet dragon, when a giant vacuum cleaner started flying after me. So I made myself invisible, and the vacuum cleaner flew right by me. Do you think that story is real? Or is it make believe?

Real ............................... Make Believe

Right! That story was make believe. Pet dragons aren't real, and I can't make myself invisible.
(Get one right, and you get to pick out a treat for her little dog Pepper.)

Here's another story. I was at the store with my mom, and I saw some strawberries. Mom said they were too expensive, so we bought bananas instead...
http://www.earobics.com/gamegoo/games/tina/tina.html
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Re: Is the religious indoctrination of children unethical?

Postby MikeN » 29 May 2012, 07:55

jimipresley wrote:That teacherlin! Dude! :bravo: :notworthy:

I just want to make a small point here. Little kids are far more likely to be entertained by whimsical fantasy rather than cold scientific fact, right? If you were 5 years old, what would you rather be listening to? Noah's animals marching into an almighty ark, two by two, prior to the Great Deluge? Moses parting the Red Sea, liberating the Israelites and vanquishing the evil Egyptians? Daniel defying all odds in the lion's den? OR: Darwin's "Tinamou egg" and Dawkins' "The Extended Phenotype"?

Now that is what I call subtle indoctrination. :wink:


Age five, maybe- though Greek and Norse mythology was far better than the stuff from Sunday School.

But by the time I was 7 I was far more interested in and entertained by books about dinosaurs, woolly mammoths and Cro-magnons than I was by the fables in the Bible.
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Re: Is the religious indoctrination of children unethical?

Postby steelersman » 29 May 2012, 10:39

Vay wrote:
SillyWilly wrote:How about I raise my kids the way I see fit, and you do the same with yours? If I want to raise my child a Muslim, who are you to tell me it's unethical? Are you a higher authority on ethical behavior? Is the government? Is the majority? Please.


I can "tell" you I think it's unethical, give you my reasons and hope to influence you without imposing any standard on you. People these days seem to be confused about this, thinking they should be able live in their little emotional comfort zones and not even have to be exposed to contradictory opinions or information. I think it's why young people these days can't constructively accept criticism (according to numerous articles).

And I don't think I'm required to be an expert on ethics to raise an opinion or question in a forum.

If teaching your child the doctrines of a certain religion is unethical, what is the alternative? Leaving him to choose his own way? If you have ever raised a child you would know that's a ludicrous thought. Without guidance a child will become an undisciplined immoral criminal.


The alternative is to try to raise him/her to have the tools to make their own evaluation when they reach adulthood, after the point where their credulity makes them easy targets for beliefs practically no thinking adult would accept without having been indoctrinated in them at an early age. Admittedly, I haven't yet done this successfully, but it seems to me a worthy goal.

Here is a resource I've been interested to read on that topic:

Parenting Beyond Belief

As for the part about undisciplined immoral criminal, who said anything about "no guidance"? Teaching morals and ethical conduct doesn't require religion. Look at the Scandinavian countries. Their crime rates are ridiculously low, and they are about as apathetic when it comes to religion as a place can get.

In fact, when it comes to moral guidance, I think even what religious people give their children is basically a heavy dose of what's socially acceptable with a smattering of very carefully cherry-picked items from their preferred religious text.

And for all those out there who think teaching their children that there is no God is somehow "ethical," think again. You're only indoctrinating your child with your own "religion," which is no religion at all.


How about not telling the child "There is/isn't/are/aren't any god/s", but simply waiting until the question is raised, and then answering it honestly with "I can't be certain, but I don't think so. What do you think?"


Is the indoctrination of children in school unethical as well?
Teaching how terrible people from another nation are?
Indoctrinating people that become a doctor or a lawyer is only way to be respected?

This list could probably go on for ever.
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Re: Is the religious indoctrination of children unethical?

Postby steelersman » 29 May 2012, 10:41

Where does the indoctrination in life begin and end? It is like one never ending cycle.
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Re: Is the religious indoctrination of children unethical?

Postby sandman » 29 May 2012, 12:55

asiababy wrote:our father read to us from all of these. He believed the first to step to understanding is exposure. Everyone from all groups were invited into our home, and were all treated with respect.

This. You have a great dad. I aspire to this (with the exception of Glasgow Rangers supporters. No welcome mat for THOSE infidels!). Glean and sift. Glean and sift.
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Re: Is the religious indoctrination of children unethical?

Postby Vay » 29 May 2012, 17:31

steelersman wrote:Where does the indoctrination in life begin and end? It is like one never ending cycle.


Steelersman, this has already been discussed quite a bit earlier on - might want to backtrack.

Zender wrote:I think five is a great age to be teaching your kids the difference between real and make believe. One site that my girls used to love had Tina's World... etc etc


:roflmao: Just squirted a quarter cup of coffee through my nose. Thanks a lot.
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Re: Is the religious indoctrination of children unethical?

Postby steelersman » 29 May 2012, 18:47

finley wrote:
Battery9 wrote:I think it's immoral to have children.

I like this!

The general assumption in some of the above is that, if you don't bring up your child within some set of religious conventions, he/she will be irreligious. Seems unlikely. Organised religions are just social conventions that enforce some sort of preferred behaviour. You think such things don't exist outside of churches? I know plenty of people who have unshakeable blind faith in the economic, political and social memes that have been put into their heads by their elders and betters: GDP growth is good, you must go to work so that you can have a mortgage and buy a car, you must vote for a political party every five years, your government knows what's best ... and they faithfully dedicate their life to doing what they're told, because if they don't, they'll go to hell (or become social outcasts, which is similar). What's that if not a religion?


The fear of becoming a social outcast is probably stronger than religion. Additionally, people often follow religion since it is a strong force where they live. If they don' go to church they will be seen as an outcast, a heathen. In many ways organized religion is not about any Jesus or Mohammad. It is about conformity and believing that you are better than other people who don't have the same beliefs as you.
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