Is the religious indoctrination of children unethical?

[Vay]

Cant all just see that the child wants attention and has recently learned the word 'post-modernism" and likes to apply it to anything he doesn't like?

He actually thinks hes 'protesting' something here in the forums by being rude. Just looking for attention, or else he would have just let his post (which he evidently saved, maybe out of protest) just die off in cyberspace, I know I did.

Um, I participated in a discussion, admitted a mistake and actually came out with a somewhat changed point of view. Can you say the same?

And when people go worrying that other people might have their feelings hurt by being exposed to unwelcome opinions or information in a non-insulting and non-threatening fashion, yep, seems pretty post modernist, whether consciously or not. Maybe my definition is wrong, but if somebody tells me where and how, I'm willing to change it. Opinions should be tentative and open to new information.

Regarding the protest, sorry but yes, on issues I care about, gonna speak up. If someone requests information for a good shark fin recipe, gonna sound off. Someone spreading anti-vaccination propaganda - going to speak up. Don't go around searching for these things because time is limited, but yep. When they think something is wrong in society, people need to say so.

As far as this issue, people have given me further insight and seems there isn't so much to worry about with regard to the religious indoctrination of children here in the thankfully secular world. I'm thankful to them for it. But as for you, I think you just got a few buttons pushed and need to lash out a little. Luckily it's the internet, so no one's gonna get hurt.

[Battery9]

point to prove

[Vay]

Your point is very clear to me.

You'd rather be happy because you made someone else unhappy (create moral discomfort) than leaving people alone to do their own thing. Why don't you rather spend the time you hang out at the restaurant making other people unhappy with your own kid before he becomes a catholic. God forbid we wouldn't want that now would we.
You're not going to get people to stop serving shark fin soup. You're just going to get them to hate foreigners interfering in everything more. Congratulations. Your creation of moral discomfort has just made life much more difficult for people (read white guys) who like living here and don't have a point to proof.

Leaving people alone to do their own thing? 90% of the big fish in the sea are gone for the sake of a mindless superstition gone hay-wire, and you'd prefer I just "leave people alone to do their own thing". You think my method is wrong, you can suggest how to change it (and I can assure you standing outside a restaurant with a sign isn't the only thing I do or have done), but don't justify your own moral cowardice by making me feel bad about mine.

And btw the buddy I go out with is a local man. I didn't want to go because I thought it would arouse ethnic sentiments, but he wanted me there for the extra attention.

[Confuzius]

Um, I participated in a discussion, admitted a mistake and actually came out with a somewhat changed point of view. Can you say the same?

Why would I "say the same"? My point of view was your posts were inappropriate, aimed at telling people how they should think and raise their own children, and essentially are aimed at seeking attention, lets see now (checking...checking...checking my point of view...hmmm...gimme a sec...)

Nope, the same.

[E04teacherlin]

I totally agree that you need to speak up, but having rapport with people is more important Standing in front of a restaurant making the owners and the customers feel uncomfortable is doing nothing other that annoying them and losing any possibility of changing their minds through a more structured approach. You create the impression that you are not interested in a more structured approach which can deliver results but rather in complaining so that you can feel happy and go home thinking you have made a change in the world when the change you have made is the opposite of what you had intended and has a negative effect on those who might actually support your point of view.
How am I a moral coward for not pissing other people off? I am also a "local man" and I hear locals (meaning us) speak about some of the ridiculous things foreigners here do because they are trying to change "us". You wasted the entire evening. You should have spent the time with your kids, rather than hanging out there or calling me a moral coward for not agreeing with your approach.

[Vay]

Um, I participated in a discussion, admitted a mistake and actually came out with a somewhat changed point of view. Can you say the same?

Why would I "say the same"? My point of view was your posts were inappropriate, aimed at telling people how they should think and raise their own children, and essentially are aimed at seeking attention, lets see now (checking...checking...checking my point of view...hmmm...gimme a sec...)

Nope, the same.

Oh, I just meant in general. Have discussed plenty of stuff in these forums, have been shown errors, have admitted them and learned. And again, expressing an unwelcome opinion or sharing information is not the same as "telling people how they should think and raise their own children." But I can see how you would think it is.

I totally agree that you need to speak up, but having rapport with people is more important Standing in front of a restaurant making the owners and the customers feel uncomfortable is doing nothing other that annoying them and losing any possibility of changing their minds through a more structured approach. You create the impression that you are not interested in a more structured approach which can deliver results but rather in complaining so that you can feel happy and go home thinking you have made a change in the world when the change you have made is the opposite of what you had intended and has a negative effect on those who might actually support your point of view.
How am I a moral coward for not pissing other people off? I am also a "local man" and I hear locals (meaning us) speak about some of the ridiculous things foreigners here do because they are trying to change "us". You wasted the entire evening. You should have spent the time with your kids, rather than hanging out there or calling me a moral coward for not agreeing with your approach.

Sorry, but the guy I went out with and the local group that initiated the action didn't feel that way, and the evidence from the fight for gay rights in America belays your argument. The conclusion drawn from their progress was that it was not making people agree with them or accepting them that gradually changed society, but simply making their presence felt that had the effect. And if your intentions are really so helpful, you might want to have started with a suggestion for a more effective method instead of simply criticizing me.

[jimipresley]

That teacherlin! Dude!

I just want to make a small point here. Little kids are far more likely to be entertained by whimsical fantasy rather than cold scientific fact, right? If you were 5 years old, what would you rather be listening to? Noah's animals marching into an almighty ark, two by two, prior to the Great Deluge? Moses parting the Red Sea, liberating the Israelites and vanquishing the evil Egyptians? Daniel defying all odds in the lions' den? OR: Darwin's "Tinamou egg" and Dawkins' "The Extended Phenotype"?

Now that is what I call subtle indoctrination.

[Vay]

That teacherlin! Dude!

You may think what he said was great, but he's flat-out wrong. People were stopping to read our signs, coming up to us and shaking our hands - a couple even took a picture with us. What we've seen has not been rage or indignation but surprise, interest and, yes, attention (although admittedly my buddy was attacked by gangsters the first time he went out, but that had nothing to do with "pissing people off" - it was more a question of financial interests being threatened).

I don't think at all that our time was wasted or that our approach was counter-productive. And Mrs. Vay fully supports me in my stance, though with the baby here I've got to limit those kind of activities.

If you were 5 years old, what would you rather be listening to? Noah's animals marching into an almighty ark, two by two, prior to the Great Deluge?

I have no problem with whimsical fantasy. In fact I love it. I do have a problem when the gist of the story is that the whole world gets drowned (including infants, animals) unless Jehovah is adequately placated. No one in Sunday school ever pointed this part out to me, but I noticed it myself and thought it was an awfully strange thing for an "all-loving god" to do. Still, when my daughter is old enough, I will share this story or ones like it with her and ask her what she thinks about it.

[jimipresley]

That teacherlin! Dude!

You may think what he said was great, but he's flat-out wrong.

Are you perchance Taiwanese? Do you not get sarcasm?

[Vay]

That teacherlin! Dude!

You may think what he said was great, but he's flat-out wrong.

Are you perchance Taiwanese? Do you not get sarcasm?

Shit sorry man. Tone is hard to get in print and when you've had a few people banging on you, you tend to get defensive, y'know?