Mormons in Taiwan

Postby mod lang » 03 Nov 2003, 00:22

enzo+ wrote:Are all US Mormons blonde and white? Do they have something against blacks?


You mean the Mud People, right? That's something of an understatement. Do a search - "Mormons, blacks" and see what you come up with. Here, let me do it for you:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=U ... %2C+blacks

From the very first link:

Other Mormons changed the church to ban blacks from the priesthood for 132 years (until 1978), and killed Indians in Utah. Brigham Young said in his own Journal of Discourses, 7:291,

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who do not have it."
-- George Bernard Shaw

Show me a cultural relativist at thirty thousand feet and I'll show you a hypocrite. Airplanes are built according to scientific principles and they work. They stay aloft and they get you to a chosen destination. Airplanes built to tribal or mythological specifications such as the dummy planes of the Cargo cults in jungle clearings or the bees-waxed wings of Icarus don't.
mod lang
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Postby Tomas » 03 Nov 2003, 01:06

Answering Alien's questions here.

Is homosexuality accepted in the Mormon church? I knew two gay Mormons back home. Undoubtedly so. One was a convert, and the other was born into it.


Homesexuality is specifically banned by the church. This was one of the reasons I left. I am not gay, but I reasoned that gay people should have the right to fall in love and have sex, just like heterosexual people, without being damned to hell.

Why do they have so many bloody kids? Tht's so inconsiderate.


Why, that's easy. To make more Mormons. Seriously, the church elders teach members that there are many souls who have not yet been given a body. Church members are called upon to create bodies for these souls, as many as possible.

Why are the women so frumpy?


Not sure why you think they're all frumpy. My girlfriends at BYU were all super-hot. My ex-wife is still a cutie, as are her sisters and most of their friends. I guess having lots of kids can change a woman's body and make fashion a lower priority.

Why do smile all the time?


They're trying to convince you that being a Mormon makes life blissful, all of the time. It isn't kosher to be a depressed Mormon. Seriously. Also, life is great when you know you're going to heaven, and you don't have to worry about moral dilemmas because "the Bretheren" have told you how to act in most situations.

But most importantly, what opened your eyes? Do you think the Mormons lose more members each year than gain new ones?


The missionary program is one hell of a sales effort, so I don't think they lose more than they gain, at least not according to LDS statistics. There are also lots of new babies being born, as you pointed out.

What opened my eyes is too complex to discuss here. If I had to give the short version, long about 24-25, I realized that the world is not so black and white, and began to feel that there must be more room for diversity of thought, race, sexuality, and creed than the church elders were allowing. I just decided to think for myself, and realized that a lot of my thinking wasn't in line with church doctrines. I spent a few years trying to make it work, then realized that it probably wasn't going to work. Then I got divorced, which lessened the family pressure to stay involved and gave me the freedom to really think about whether it was right or not for me. For one year, I made one last effort, then decided I was sure. Best thing I ever did, though as I've written before, I have no regrets about my involvement in the church.
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Re: Mormons in Taiwan

Postby Tomas » 03 Nov 2003, 01:26

Addressing Flicka's questions here.
My mother used to hate her Mormon boss because she felt that Mormons didn't like women who worked. Can you shed some light on this?


The Mormon autocracy teaches members that a woman's place is in the home. It is okay for single or childless women to work, as long as they are working toward the goal of marriage and/or children.

What would be a good average? I've heard lots of Taiwanese say the first time they ever had contact with another foreigner was when Mormon missionaries came to their door.


People were gracious for the most part, and often invited into their homes. Imagine trying to sell an American religion to Taiwanese people and you'll understand why conversion rates are so low. The best salesman we had in the mission brought 13 people into the church. Many of them leave after the missionary who converted them leaves the area.

Can't you elaborate just a tiny bit of what goes on?


Okay, the temple ceremony is done the first time for oneself. Afterward it is done by living proxy for those souls who have died without benefit of the temple ceremony.

The first part is called "washing and annointing," and it involves wearing a "sheild" which is really just a large white sheet with the sides open. A temple worker blesses each part of your body (including "the loins," which made me a bit nervous, because they touch each part of your body with holy oil as they pronounce a blessing over it--as it turns out, they only touch your waistline when they bless your loins). It lasts for about 30 minutes.

The second part of the ceremony is called the endowment. They have men and women in the same room, fully clothed in white, but sitting in segregated seats, men on one side, women on the other. You watch a movie about Adam, God, Satan, and some of the early apostles, standing and sitting from time to time as you make convenants with God. You end up clothed in a baker-style hat, a robe, a sash, and a green apron, which represents the loincloths Adam and Eve wore after being cast out of the garden of Eden. You then stand up and go through a "veil ceremony," which represents a persons passage into heaven. The endowment lasts for about 90 minutes. A lot of people fall asleep in the middle of it. When you finish, you're in a gorgeous room called "The Celestial Room," which represents heaven. You talk quietly with your spouse and other relatives, pray to yourself, and ponder your life. Very soothing, actually. Then, you go change into your street clothes and go to a nearby ice cream shop so that you can get a little fatter and think about how righteous you are. Starting to see why I couldn't buy into this after a few years of going to temple ceremonies?

Were there any negative repercussions from your family?


Initially, yes. Most of my relatives who are still active now recognize that I've gone in the direction that was right for me.

Some very smart people stay in the Mormon church. I think the reasons have much more to do with emotional comfort levels and lifestyle than with intellectual issues.
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Postby Wanker of Mass Destruct » 03 Nov 2003, 04:40

I've managed to maintain friendships with some members of the church, and about half of my family members are still active. I respect these people, even though I disagree with many of their beliefs.


Living in Taiwan, I imagine you often have to explain why you speak Chinese so well, which probably brings up the subject of your former missionary experience and your subsequent "heretic" status. It seems having to constantly explain the change in what you believed then and what you believe now could be a source of annoyance, since many would assume only the very devout become Mormon missionionaries.

Do you find it tedious to have to explain the whole story to new acquaintances (as you have done so honestly and eloquently here) or have you invented a cover story?
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Postby Alien » 03 Nov 2003, 08:09

Is it difficult for Mormons to divorce? Did your ex-wife remarry? Another Mormon?

Some very smart people stay in the Mormon church. I think the reasons have much more to do with emotional comfort levels and lifestyle than with intellectual issues.

I thought there was supposed to be quite a good socialist system in place and that many mainstream Mormons felt financial security due to this factor.

What do you think of the split-off Mormon extremists with many wives? What do other Mormons think of that? Surely, they don't consider it a sin, do they?
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Postby Tomas » 03 Nov 2003, 09:53

Wanker of Mass Destruct wrote:
I've managed to maintain friendships with some members of the church, and about half of my family members are still active. I respect these people, even though I disagree with many of their beliefs.


Living in Taiwan, I imagine you often have to explain why you speak Chinese so well, which probably brings up the subject of your former missionary experience and your subsequent "heretic" status. It seems having to constantly explain the change in what you believed then and what you believe now could be a source of annoyance, since many would assume only the very devout become Mormon missionionaries.

Do you find it tedious to have to explain the whole story to new acquaintances (as you have done so honestly and eloquently here) or have you invented a cover story?


Yes, it is tedious to explain myself to people, so I typically answer the questions about why my Mandarin is so fluent and why I came here by saying that I came here when I was in college to work. Missionary work is in fact hard work, and I did interrupt my studies for two years to come here. Later, if I get to know someone, I give them the more detailed version.
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Postby formosa » 03 Nov 2003, 10:18

almas john, the Mormons i met here in Korea last week told me that they cannot even read the newspapers overseas for two years? Tomas, is that true too? So they cannot read the China Post or TT while they are in Taiwan? Yikes! How do they get the news?

Tomas, your stories are great, thanks. You will be damned to Hell for telling us, but thanks. They really wear special underwear? OMIGOD! and that initiation ceremony is positively BONKERS SUPERNATURAL HOCUS POCUS. unbelieavble!

God bless you,f or being so honest to tell us the truth. I hope you do not suffer any negative repercussons from Mormons in Taiwan reading your posts...
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Postby formosa » 03 Nov 2003, 10:21

Oh, and almas john, the Mormons do teach English in taiwan, and they do make money at it, and it is illegal and against the nature of their visas but they all do it. DONTCHA KNOW?

They offer free English classes at their churches around the island, and these free English classes are indeed free. but they use these classes to try to recruit new members of their Church, subtly at first, less so later, and they do accept "donations" which help pay for the classes and which are really income. They just don't tell the visa people what they do, and the authories just look the other way. Yes, they are stealing students from you. you should alarmed!
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Postby dosvog2002 » 03 Nov 2003, 10:38

mod lang wrote
"Needless to say, in the age of "political correctness" , the Church has reluctantly disavowed such racism (at least publicly). But the fact that they had to wait until as late as 1978 to do so speaks volumes."


Coincidently, at the same time the Morman Church proscribed racism the US government were offering substantial tax relief to organisations that showed no racism or prejudice. So was it a genuine effort by the church to amend their ways or a shrewd business move?
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Postby formosa » 03 Nov 2003, 11:01

shrewd biz move. mormonism is nothing but a business enterprise. what is most sad is that innocent and naive Taiwanese and Koreans and Japanese get recruited into the church by stealthy means of mind control and missionary pressure. I have known many Asians who got swindled emotionally by the missionaries. They catch them on the street, or in the parks or in the bookstores, and they always go after single people, they always target lonely marks in Asia, and then after offering them FREE English lessons at their churches, they pressure them to join the church. I have seen many taiwanese and Koreans crying deep tears over this kind of extreme family and personal pressure -- all for a charlatan religion that we in the West know to be pure bullshit. Come one, Joe Smith found a golden bible in upstate New York?

Okay, and I have a bridge to sell you, real cheap.....

sad sad, the harm they do in Asia, these misguided "Uhmericans!"
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