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EWCP

Re: EWCP

Postby limoncello » 04 Aug 2014, 01:13

http://jszimhart.com/essays/laura_knight_jadczyk

Goes with the territory, as they say....(btw, if you bother to read the immature frenzy of posts about me on the cassiopaea forum, bear in mind this reaction is typical after a family intervention fails to convince a cult member to defect. The intervention that sparked this fox in a henhouse cult crisis was an open meeting during one day wherein the cult member was told from the start that I would leave if he asked me to and that he could end the session and leave at any time. Several family witnesses were present. We talked and exchanged ideas without rancor for a full day, but, once the member revealed to LKJ who I was, the proverbial shit in a cult leader's mind splattered into conspiracy mode. The cult member refused to meet with me again. My prior reputation as a deprogrammer that did work on some alleged kidnap cases prior to 1992 is what is creating the phony panic among Jadczyk's cult members at this time. Cult leaders will manufacture or fan a crisis to insert phobias in devotees--the better to manipulate them for personal gain.)


You can have whatever opinion you like about Joe Szimhart, but I would encourage you not to made a decision about who he is and what he does based on what cults say about him. Of course they would not like him very much.

I don't know a lot about cult "deprogramming". I'm not an exit counselor and I have never been in a cult let alone exited one. I do know that older methods of deprogramming, such as kidnapping interventions, were once considered a legitimate way to try and get a loved one out of a cult. Now, they are not. They are not done anymore. Szimhart himself has said this. Nobody is going to go to EWCP and kidnap members, tie them down and force them to listen to "deprogramming" talk.

They can do what they like. From my understanding of the blog, the goal is not to force people to leave. It is to let outsiders know what their experiences were, so that anyone who chooses to get involved knows that there are bad stories out there. That in itself is pretty good inoculation against recruitment and mind control. You cannot manipulate someone who suspects the group may have an agenda to manipulate them. If they are able to prove Wang is a fraud, and I believe he is, then more power to them. If they are not, they are still telling their stories.

What are they supposed to do, not tell their truths because some people might be upset about it?
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Re: EWCP

Postby limoncello » 04 Aug 2014, 01:22

Ermintrude wrote:
limoncello wrote:How kind.


Nothing to do with kindness. When the plane goes down, you put your own mask on first. You don't fumble around putting everyone else's on then die yourself. It's enough work to keep myself happy and secure and connected, without entering the Slough of Despond with Lonely Girl who genuinely thinks the size of her arse is the source of her problems.

If the 'I hate myself because I'm different from everyone in the place I chose to live in' crowd took better care of themselves then they'd be less vulnerable to being preyed on. Of course, shitheads shouldn't prey on the vulnerable, but we can't police that without removing the free will of those women. There's expats 'supporting eachother' which is great and then there's swallowing your irritation and letting go of your own needs (equal friendship, mutual support, fun, relaxation) yet again for some silly wee girl's lack of awareness and low self-esteem while she drones on about her sexless life.

It may sound harsh, but it's not, it's a sensible attitude. You are just unused to the sound of a healthy female psyche reaching for its own oxygen mask. And you've probably heard it less than me. :cactus:


You are correct. Kindness has nothing to do with your reaction.

Think of it this way. People's self esteem does not come from themselves alone. It cannot. It comes from normal and normalised social interactions. Having friends, having relationships, feeling included, feeling welcome, feeling loved as a friend or lover. Feeling normal even if you look different or are a minority or are eccentric (we are all a little eccentric. That is not what I mean). If you are lonely or you feel invisible, your opportunities to make friends or date are reduced or if you feel as though society has judged you as explicitly undesireable, that would affect your self-esteem. That is normal. It is how humans work.

Thinking people who deal with this should "take care of themselves" and that will solve the problem is shortsighted. Of course they should take care of themselves. But that won't solve the whole problem. We do not live in bubbles.

You are correct, I don't know how it feels to be in that position. But we do not all have our own oxygen masks. We share oxygen. Perhaps those "silly wee girls" also want equal friendship, mutual support, fun and relaxation and perhaps sex, too. Is it so strange that they would be attracted to a group that gives them all the things normal humans want? And what's more a group that bombs them with it (love-bombs them?) Nobody likes to feel invisible and nobody likes to feel judged. Not in a store where your size simply does not exist or has three XXXes after it: this is a specific complaint of a female friend of mine. Not by people who ignore you, both expat and Taiwanese. It is not something we should dismiss at all. This is a normal thing to want. It is a very powerful recruitment tactic.

That is not silly. Nobody deserves to be dismissed like that. I may not have had this experience but I know the feeling of being lonely, and so I empathise.

Of course, shitheads shouldn't prey on the vulnerable, but we can't police that without removing the free will of those women.


Nobody is suggesting that free will should be removed. The issue here is making personal stories about bad experiences public. Nobody here or on that blog is going to attempt to stop somebody from attending an East West Culture Project or Boddicitta project event. It is extremely unlikely that anyone could stop Master Wang, as nobody yet has access to his full identity in order to verify his claims. I can't speak for the blog owner but personally my hope is that the stories will be widely read. Some people will believe them and some won't. Either way they are true stories. If you believe that they are. I do. Anybody who wants to can still go to an EWCP event or meet Master Wang. That doesn't mean people telling their stories should be silenced, nor does it mean that the link should be removed.
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Re: EWCP

Postby Ermintrude » 04 Aug 2014, 11:18

It IS silly. Look, I'm pretty fat, and I've lived in Asia since I left university. I've also been lonely, depressed and fucked up, especially when I was in my 20s and had less confidence, fewer coping strategies and more crappier jobs with less security. But I've never joined a cult because I couldn't find pants that fit. Sounds like male projection of motives coming from the 'you must feel inferior to Asian women because we foreign guys prefer 'em' cliche, to me.

While I'm not doubting that they exist and that they are vulnerable, and I would never deliberately kick them when they were down (stamping on the fingers of young women who are hanging by a thread is not my style), nor am I going to take time out of my life to indulge their crap. If I'm going to advocate for other women, it's not going to be the ones who can't get over their own vanity.

If you go to Asia and join some silly Buddhist group, then that's your right. Use your own brains and instincts. Look after yourself and don't lose your mind. But this arguing online about whether something is or isn't a cult to 'warn' vulnerable women is daft. Of course EWCP's ridiculous. All social religious behaviour is ridiculous. But it serves a need for the people that do it and as long as they aren't Jonestowning or hurting children, leave 'em to it.
'And we'll hide from the cunts, on our night reconnaissance'.
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Re: EWCP

Postby limoncello » 04 Aug 2014, 11:47

Remember that I have a few friends who have been in this cult. Both are female. This is the explanation both gave for why they joined. Not that they felt fat - in fact, neither did and neither are. That particular rant came from another friend who is otherwise confident and happy. No, it is not silly to feel like crap because you feel unwelcome, invisible or lonely. It just is not. Your argument comes down to "I don't feel that way so any woman who does feel that way is silly and vain." I don't think it's vanity that causes these feelings, it is the normal reaction to a feeling of social isolation. I am not giving out my own views here. I'm talking about what I have heard from others in a better position to speak to this kind of feeling. Obviously people who feel this way should find something within themselves to sustain them, but leaving it at that is cruel. It denies people the right to feel something that is normal as the social animals they are.

I don't think you have been reading the above posts about why the blog exists. It is to tell the stories of people who have been through this. Do you think they shouldn't be allowed to tell their stories online, and to have those stories be found and read if people choose to read them? Why not? If I had been through something like that, then I would want to tell my story too.

If you read the blog you will read about animal abuse - to me that is as horrific as hurting children. There are parts that detail medical abuse as well and reports of harassment upon trying to leave.

People do have the right to join whatever group they like. Similarly, people who feel a group is abusive have the right to tell their story. It is not daft. If you do not want to read the story, then don't read it. Nobody is forcing you to click a link or do a Google Search. Nobody is forcing anybody not to join EWCP. But what you are suggesting is that people who have been abused shut up about it or that they don't try to spread their stories. That's really daft.
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Re: EWCP

Postby Ermintrude » 04 Aug 2014, 11:53

OK, I see your point of view. Good luck to your friends. Perhaps that narration is the first step in moving forward? Paradoxically, you have to think a bit more of yourself, while at the same time dropping the fixation with your feelings. I think that's why Buddhism appeals to young women: the idea of sitting quietly, not focusing on their own thoughts both baffles and attracts them. I hope they get better, anyway.
'And we'll hide from the cunts, on our night reconnaissance'.
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Re: EWCP

Postby limoncello » 05 Aug 2014, 10:56

Apparently word seems to have gotten back to EWCP that people are questioning their guru's credentials and lineage.

https://www.facebook.com/tsalpa.kagyu/photos/a.1424540001106931.1073741851.1396092807284984/1561652790728984/?type=1&theater

It is long so I won't cut and paste it here - it's public so anyone can see.

The gist of this seems to be, "Science Thing, Science Thing, pseudoscience bullshit, obvious crap everyone knows, something about ultracentrifuges, "Buddhism has had to face global warming", whatever that means, so we shouldn't encourage false gurus, but I'm not false, because science. Global warming, laser enrichment."

At no point does he actually talk about his lineage, which other scholars or masters have recognized him as a spiritual master, or in any way say something substantive about himself. My Chinese is admittedly poor, so I asked a Taiwanese friend who is Buddhist to check it over. His response was that the Chinese is accurately translated into English, but that "this person's words are garbage. It doesn't make any sense."

Whether you agree or not, it is worth having a look to see how the "great guru" himself answers allegations that he is not who he says he is. Perhaps "Buddhism, global warming, also we could go to Mars, so, I am a real guru" will speak to you somehow. I am left ever more convinced that the guy is a fraud.
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Re: EWCP

Postby Rotalsnart » 05 Aug 2014, 12:35

That Facebook post is hysterically funny. The English translation is actually pretty accurate. In many of his posts on that Facebook site, "香.隆立嘉措仁波切 Shang Longrik Gyatso Rinpoche" is basically just spouting random New Age gobbledygook, while ironically arguing at the same time for the need to adhere to purity of lineage. Do his followers actually read these and think he is making sense or that there is something profound in there?
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Re: EWCP

Postby limoncello » 05 Aug 2014, 13:25

Rotalsnart wrote:That Facebook post is hysterically funny. The English translation is actually pretty accurate. In many of his posts on that Facebook site, "香.隆立嘉措仁波切 Shang Longrik Gyatso Rinpoche" is basically just spouting random New Age gobbledygook, while ironically arguing at the same time for the need to adhere to purity of lineage. Do his followers actually read these and think he is making sense or that there is something profound in there?


You're just too bound to earth, unable to grasp the higher-level concepts of enlightenment and Buddhism and how that is inextricably linked to how our lives are composed of many elements and the world is composed of many elements that come together to make different things and personalities and Star Wars and lasers. Also that since the Industrial Revolution we have relied on the Sun. Before the Industrial Revolution we didn't need the Sun. But now we do. So, Buddhism.

Clearly this guy is totally legitimate.

Step 1: Become a guru by giving yourself a fancy name and creating a story about your lineage. Get followers. When someone questions you, talk about unrelated science crap until they shut up.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: PROFIT!
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Re: EWCP

Postby Zla'od » 05 Aug 2014, 16:13

Step 2 should read "Make said followers give you money."
“What part of a woman is the yet, anyway? I heard there was a fight here in Tulsa, and a woman was shot in the fracas. The doc said the bullet is in her yet. And how did the bullet get in her yet, when she was shot in the fracas?"
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Re: EWCP

Postby limoncello » 05 Aug 2014, 17:49

Yup, 10-30% of your income according to the blog, all in red envelopes, no receipts provided. Sounds totally legitimate. Sign me up.

What people want to do with their money is up to them although on Wang's part that counts as tax evasion. Not that you could ever get him for that in Taiwan. What bothers me are the pressure tactics, the isolation, animal abuse and creation and encouragement of situations dangerous to one's health. And lying about his master-ship and lineage, but to some extent all religions have a bit of "woo" going on.

Everything else they do is quite legal, I think. Although I am not sure the organization is legally registered as such and the teachers of its various classes, if they have ARCs for other work, are probably violating the law by engaging in activities not permitted on their ARCs. However, that's not the serious issue. I don't care if someone teaches a qi gong class off the books.

I do care about abused animals and medical abuse and other issues like that.
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