I have never read the good book so.....

Re: I have never read the good book so.....

Postby bismarck » 22 Sep 2010, 22:59

Taffy wrote:

He's funny, but he makes some good points.

Yeah, funny, but Jesus beat him to it by about 2000 years.
Matthew 22:35-40 wrote: 35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Mark 12:28-31 wrote: 28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Luke 10:25-28 says the same thing, with the exception that it also relates "who is your neighbour?"
Luke 10:29-37 wrote:29But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Dragonbones wrote:
Funk500 wrote:Bismarck it seems was taken aback that such a thing could occur in Western societies where Christianity is big.


I'm taken aback by bismarck's being taken aback. Seriously. Why would one trudge through thousands of pages of unreadable, ancient gibberish pertaining to someone else's religion? The beliefs of Christianity in Western societies are already more than adequately on display.

Well, apart from it having been an IRL private conversation...
What surprised me was how someone from a Western "Christian" country had grown up without going to Sunday School and learning about Adam and Eve, the Serpent, the Garden of Eden, Cain and Abel (the first instance of alcoholism in the Bible :wink: ), Abraham, Isaac, Joseph (and stupid cartoon movies don't count), Moses, Saul, David, Goliath, Samuel, Ruth, Isaiah, Daniel, Mary and Joseph, Jesus, The Twelve, Paul, Gabriel and Michael...

Although, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, because I don't think I've met a single Christian in Taiwan who hasn't been either South African, a Priest, Pastor or Taiwanese. When people back home talk about Americans being Christian people, and the West being Christian, I laugh my ass off.

Dragonbones wrote:
Namahottie wrote:Perhaps he searching for something and wants to begin with that? I certainly don't find it "ancient gibberish" but rather guidance in a world that has lost vision and focus.
Great, more power to him. My point was addressed at the expectation BY some Christians that even non-Christians should have read said lengthy, ancient religious text, which expectation (with all due respect to our Christian friends) does not strike me as reasonable.

I believe it was directed at me particularly...
And I had no expectation other than a general (mis)perception that being adult believers or not, people in western countries like the US, Canada, UK etc had the same sort of upbringing as I did. i.e. Being dragged to church by a parent and forced to sit through Sunday school afterwards (whether you like it or not) and therefore being "exposed" to Biblical stories.

Then again, perhaps I can understand your misconceptions regarding our private discussion, as you weren't there and have no idea whether I expressed "expectation" that everyone should have read the Bible or merely "surprise" that a fellow westerner had never been exposed to Biblical stories through the medium of things like Sunday school etc...

Not really sure why it was deemed necessary to mention me in the OP, though, especially seeing as how things usually evolve here... :2cents:
Funk500 wrote:This is an interesting discussion, but I wanna say my point wasn't to decry my good friend bismarck, his faith or anything.

Well, that's good to know, but I think some others saw the mention of my name as Carte Blanche time to bash the "Jesus Junkie".

Wish they'd rather grow a pair and bash the "Allah Agbahds", but that wouldn't be PC, now would it... :roll:
Gao Bohan wrote:I was raised Methodist. My mother read the Bible to my sister and me, even after we were old enough to read it ourselves (though we did that too). Methodists don't take all parts of the Bible literally, and considerably more emphasis was placed on the New Testament than the Old. The Bible, and more generally the Christian religion, is not all about God slaying sinners and stoning adulterers.

I've lost the faith, but I do think I learned good moral values in church. And it wasn't just about sitting in a pew and listening to the preacher. Like many churches, we participated in Habitat for Humanity, a Christian organization that builds houses for the poor, at no profit, all over the world. I grumbled like the other kids, but I can remember the feeling of satisfaction as the house we built slowly started to take shape. Meeting the family at the end was a deeply emotional experience.

In my chat with funk, that was what I would've expected to have been the "norm". Having been exposed to the literature and stories at least. As I said, I have many friends (both Saffa and otherwise) who grew up going to Sunday school and church etc who no longer believe) who no longer believe, and that wasn't the thing. I was just surprised someone from England, for example, had never had any exposure to it at all.
It doesn't surprise me that my Taiwanese friends don't share this exposure or these stories growing up, but this is a Buddhist/Daoist country. If anything, I'm surprised when I meet people here who did grow up going to Church etc...
Namahottie wrote:
Dragonbones wrote:If most politicians in the U.S. would be committing political suicide by stating that they're atheists, and generally only Judeo-Christians can get elected, and in Florence, Kentucky liquor stores are closed on Sundays, and many Christians are pushing to get prayer into public schools, I don't think we can say we've achieved "post-Christian" status yet, at least not in the U.S. of Jesusland.


You're pointing out two factors as reason to say that America isn't post-Christian? I expect better of you, young man. :no-no: :lol: Compare today's America to let's say the 60s -- marriage, abortion, strict observation of the Sabbath, mainstream celebration of Christian holidays--were all influenced by Christian tenets, I'd say we are very much "post-Christian". Ask any older Jewish person about America culture recognizing Jewish holidays, and they'll tell you that America has come a loooong way baby.

As I said above, I haven't met a single Christian American in eight years outside of South Africa. I've met one Christian Canadian, but she's married to a Saffa...
If people are very different in the US from people I've met outside the US, then I'd say the US is faaaaaaaaaar from anything resembling Christian anymore. It seems to me these issues are usually political ones, and are possibly just so much a part of the culture that they are readily usable in politics. For example, a bloke in the mid-west may never have gone to church, or may not have gone since sixth grade, drinks, fornicates and lives the good life, but he sure as hell wont vote "for no Muslim as Prez, nor no fornicator as governor"... :2cents:
TwoTongues wrote:No ones sayin it hasn't improved some, but it aint close to bein post-Christian in any way shape or form. Do I need to trot out the polls on belief in angels and evolution again? Ten commandments in courthouses, creationism in school books, and abortions are practically illegal (no abortion providers) in 88% of counties in the US - 97% in non-urban areas (!).

What DB says seems like the right measure to me - when an openly atheistic president can get elected, then we'll get back to this issue.

Isn't that just a very vocal minority? I ask honestly, as I truly have no idea. Are you saying that most people back in the USA (for example) are practicing church going Christians, or are they the opposite who are either a vocal minority, or just people who hold certain "odd" beliefs based on stories they once heard as small children?
TainanCowboy wrote:
Dragonbones wrote:When Christmas is not a national holiday, we have open atheists for President, and anyone suggesting school prayer gets tarred and feathered and run out of the damned town

As in Saudi Arabia....Libya...Sudan...Egypt... :ponder: Hmmmm...I think I'm seeing a trend here.

Nama -
I will dis-agree in saying that the USA is "post-Christian." It may be fashionable to 'not be Christian' among some sub-groups, but the vast majority of the population still self-identifies with the Judeo-Christian ideology. They just tend to be smothered over by the fringe groups that wish to deny that fact by refusing to acknowledge their majority and loudly proclaiming their atheistic viewpoints.

Seems you're saying that most Americans are practicing church goers and the Atheists are the vocal minority?
This was closer to my (mis?)conception of Western countries in the discussion I had with Funk mentioned in the OP.
Gao Bohan wrote:It's too bad you're reading the sanitized, two-page summary per chapter version. You missed the part where that righteous family God shows mercy on offers up its virgin daughters to prevent the mob from raping the angels.

Just wait till you get to the story of Job.

And then some folks say it's a boring book. There's enough x-rated material in there to keep even the hardest action fan, or porno junkie (yes, you, jimi) happy...
And don't forget the Song of Solomon! :thumbsup: :D
ThreadKiller wrote:Everybody who holds the Bible dear are adamant that it is The Good Book. I feel they simply do this because that is what they have been brought up to do or that they have been instilled with this idea while converting through their own need to believe in something.

Quite right, as with any religion or belief system. Some people grow up, think for themselves and either adapt their beliefs, or like you and jimi, change them completely. That I understand, and it doesn't surprise me in the least. As to the OP mentioning my surprise, again, I was merely surprised that other Western nations don't share a similar religious upbringing to some extent or another, even a glancing superficial one.

ThreadKiller wrote:God really is a nasty in the Old Testament.

That really bothered me as a laaitie in Sunday school, especially as the OT is for Jews and we were the Gentiles. I couldn't help but think (and mention it to the irritation of our Sunday school teachers) that if we had lived in the OT days we would have been smited, pelted with fire and brimstone or drowned in the flood...

ThreadKiller wrote:So, I've always wondered how an adult of reasonable mind, who had no invested interest in salvation, would respond when reading it.

While I guess I have a vested interest in salvation, I believe in God, more in the way that Jews do. I'm prolly more of a Jew than anything, although I believe in Jesus, but how I do so even I'm not 100% sure anymore. I definitely believe in God, but how exactly I believe in God I'm still defining for myself...
TainanCowboy wrote:Lol...I've been waiting to see who would drag out this publication.
Its widely available on the internet - for FREE - both as a download, as a read-on-line and I think even available for your cell-phone. Just the thing to keep the busy atheist on top of their game!

Where? Links? I've searched but can't find it...

Interesting how a quiet convo can evolve into such an "interesting" discussion.

What have I learned? Don't take for granted that other people of similar culture background share a similar (religious) upbringing...
Image
World Champions 1995, 2007; Tri-Nations champions 1998, 2004, 2009; Grand Slam Champions 1912/13, 1931/32, 1951/52, 1960/61; Defeated British & Irish Lions 1903, 1924, 1938, 1962, 1968, 1980, 2009
Image
Super 14 Champions 2007, 2009, 2010
Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash.
Sir Winston Churchill

Second of all, as in all honeymoons, all is well until it is not. It is until the unexpected happens that you will see all grievances surface -ask anyone in any relationship. The girl can chew with her mouth open, that if you love her, you do not care. If you do not lover her, if her pinkie toe is half an inch deviant, the relationship is doomed. - Icon
Forumosan avatar
bismarck
Maitreya Buddha (Mílèfó)
 
Posts: 11605
Joined: 07 Jan 2005, 04:44
Location: Tainan City 台彎, 台南
150 Recommends(s)
141 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: I have never read the good book so.....

Postby Gao Bohan » 22 Sep 2010, 23:43

the chief wrote:See, that's what those molesters atheists don't get, we freely acknowledge that some things are too much for even G-d.
Or He can't make sense out of it any more than we can...


Is the implication here that atheists are molesters? :ponder:
Our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal. - John F. Kennedy
Forumosan avatar
Gao Bohan
Thinking of Staging a Coup (xiǎng yào gǎo zhèng biàn)
Thinking of Staging a Coup (xiǎng yào gǎo zhèng biàn)
 
Posts: 6135
Joined: 28 Jun 2004, 03:20
Location: The Glorious American Empire
119 Recommends(s)
223 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: I have never read the good book so.....

Postby thirdstring » 11 Jun 2012, 02:28

Funk500 wrote:Now here's a thing that has got me thinking..

I was having a chat with bismarck the other day ( a noted believer) who was surprised to learn I've never read the bible, my reasons mostly because there was never one in my house as a kid, my parents were never religious (although my mother comes from Methodist stock, and the only rule she really followed was no alcohol) and so on. Bismarck it seems was taken aback that such a thing could occur in Western societies where Christianity is big.

Now what got me thinking is.. I'd say my value system is pretty similar to that of Christianity.. but is that due to Christianity having such a huge influence on our society that it shaped our thinking beyond religion to such an extent that a person can follow the basic tenets and not be a Christian/Muslim or whatever? Or is it that religions are based on common sense?

I'm confused now. What could it be?


Okay, old thread, but IMO worth making a comment: Biblical Christianity isn't a value system. The basic point of the New Testament (and the whole Bible, though less obvious) is that we cannot satisfy God's standard.

Of course, as many responses pointed out, we see today that the "value system Christianity" is alive & well, especially in politics. But that, I would argue, is distinct from Biblical Christianity. Or another way to understand it: people call themselves Christian because they grew up going to church, but never understood what the Bible actually teaches. That was true for me as well for a long time.
thirdstring
Memorized My Password (gāng jìhǎo zìjǐ de mìmǎ)
 
Posts: 71
Joined: 23 May 2011, 17:31
25 Recommends(s)
3 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: I have never read the good book so.....

Postby E04teacherlin » 14 Jun 2012, 02:24

thirdstring wrote:
Funk500 wrote:Now here's a thing that has got me thinking..

I was having a chat with bismarck the other day ( a noted believer) who was surprised to learn I've never read the bible, my reasons mostly because there was never one in my house as a kid, my parents were never religious (although my mother comes from Methodist stock, and the only rule she really followed was no alcohol) and so on. Bismarck it seems was taken aback that such a thing could occur in Western societies where Christianity is big.

Now what got me thinking is.. I'd say my value system is pretty similar to that of Christianity.. but is that due to Christianity having such a huge influence on our society that it shaped our thinking beyond religion to such an extent that a person can follow the basic tenets and not be a Christian/Muslim or whatever? Or is it that religions are based on common sense?

I'm confused now. What could it be?


Okay, old thread, but IMO worth making a comment: Biblical Christianity isn't a value system. The basic point of the New Testament (and the whole Bible, though less obvious) is that we cannot satisfy God's standard.

Of course, as many responses pointed out, we see today that the "value system Christianity" is alive & well, especially in politics. But that, I would argue, is distinct from Biblical Christianity. Or another way to understand it: people call themselves Christian because they grew up going to church, but never understood what the Bible actually teaches. That was true for me as well for a long time.

I thought the whole point of the New Testament was that it doesn't matter if you are Taiwanese, or gay or stupid or white, but that Jesus died for your sins and the only way into heaven would be to believe that. Just that. No other special knowledge or abilities required. You just have to believe that Jesus died for your sins and that they are thereby forgiven. Now we can argue forever about whether Jesus ever really walked this planet, which Jesus we are referring to and whatever until we puke (ad nausea) but that doesn't change what I believe the New Testament is all about. You truly believe that Jesus died for your sins and that God wants to forgive you you are A OK.
E04teacherlin
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
 
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 Feb 2012, 01:54
85 Recommends(s)
47 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: I have never read the good book so.....

Postby Charlie Phillips » 14 Jun 2012, 05:58

So you should start from the beginning.

In the beginning the earth was formless and void.
"Why do you want gas? It's hot. You can have cold showers" ~gas delivery man height of summer, 2010.

"Why you wear so many clothes? You are foreigner. Foreign countries are cold." buxiban owner, depth of winter 2011.
Forumosan avatar
Charlie Phillips
Immune to Breathalizers (jiǔ cèce bù chūlái)
Immune to Breathalizers (jiǔ cèce bù chūlái)
 
Posts: 2082
Joined: 21 Nov 2005, 14:53
Location: Woods by name but now a city
80 Recommends(s)
158 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: I have never read the good book so.....

Postby Karuna Dharmakaya » 09 Sep 2012, 12:40

Funk500 wrote:Yeah I know what you are saying MT. But I'm talking basic tenets. Do the 10 commandments make sense because of societal influence or because they are just common sense?

Muslims and Jews don't eat pork or shellfish for religious reasons, but one could quite easily say that back in the old days, it would have been very difficult to keep shellfish from going off in the Middle East heat.


Hey Brother honestly the 10 commandments are evil.
Many people neglect the bible also states the punishements for breaking the 10 laws is death.
Here is an example Numb 15:32-36 this violated the dont work on sabath commandment.
See what I mean.
Karuna Dharmakaya
Memorized My Password (gāng jìhǎo zìjǐ de mìmǎ)
 
Posts: 46
Joined: 18 Aug 2012, 15:03
1 Recommends(s)
3 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: I have never read the good book so.....

Postby Zla'od » 09 Sep 2012, 16:42

Theoretically, about 4 percent of the population here is Christian (half of them Catholic and half Protestant). As for the others, in my experience, most young people know about Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, and Jesus (I think these stories are covered in school), just as they know about the rabbit in the moon. They understand that Christians go to church, but don't do baibai. They know little about what goes on in a church service, other than weddings (which are often shown on movies). Many have never heard of Judaism, or Israel (either ancient or modern), and blink blankly when you refer to the Holy Trinity. That Catholics are Christians is not well understood. Even those students who ARE Christians may have been playing video games in church the whole time, and so cannot tell you how many gods there are.

I am waiting for the day when I see a cartoony, manga-fied image of Christ on the cross, with big cute eyes. Maybe they'll sell little plastic toy statues at the 7-11, like they used to with folk deities. They could have a whole set with God, Adam (these two could be designed to touch fingers, like in the Sistine Chapel), Eve (with snake and apple), an angel, the devil, Jesus, Mary, and Muhammad.
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) forbade withdrawing the penis from a free woman unless she gives permission. Ibn Majah transmitted it. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 950)
Zla'od
Fried Chicken-Parts Vendor (yán sū jī xiǎofàn)
Fried Chicken-Parts Vendor (yán sū jī xiǎofàn)
 
Posts: 962
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 08:36
62 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: I have never read the good book so.....

Postby Karuna Dharmakaya » 09 Sep 2012, 17:48

Dragonbones wrote:When Christmas is not a national holiday, we have open atheists for President, and anyone suggesting school prayer gets tarred and feathered and run out of the damned town, THEN we will be post-Christian! :lol:



Yea America is post christian,seriously go to a christian church 30 old people 2 kids the youth in America flat out reject Christianity

Heck dude it used to be only asians in our town were Buddhists,now blond hair white Buddhists out number Asian Buddhism 6 to 1

Peace
Karuna Dharmakaya
Memorized My Password (gāng jìhǎo zìjǐ de mìmǎ)
 
Posts: 46
Joined: 18 Aug 2012, 15:03
1 Recommends(s)
3 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: I have never read the good book so.....

Postby bismarck » 10 Sep 2012, 23:28

Zla'od wrote:Eve (with snake and apple)

Feck!! I'll buy that if she looks like one of those One Piece birds!! :D

Karuna Dharmakaya wrote:
Dragonbones wrote:When Christmas is not a national holiday, we have open atheists for President, and anyone suggesting school prayer gets tarred and feathered and run out of the damned town, THEN we will be post-Christian! :lol:



Yea America is post christian,seriously go to a christian church 30 old people 2 kids the youth in America flat out reject Christianity

Heck dude it used to be only asians in our town were Buddhists,now blond hair white Buddhists out number Asian Buddhism 6 to 1

Peace

How New Age of them. :roll:
Image
World Champions 1995, 2007; Tri-Nations champions 1998, 2004, 2009; Grand Slam Champions 1912/13, 1931/32, 1951/52, 1960/61; Defeated British & Irish Lions 1903, 1924, 1938, 1962, 1968, 1980, 2009
Image
Super 14 Champions 2007, 2009, 2010
Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash.
Sir Winston Churchill

Second of all, as in all honeymoons, all is well until it is not. It is until the unexpected happens that you will see all grievances surface -ask anyone in any relationship. The girl can chew with her mouth open, that if you love her, you do not care. If you do not lover her, if her pinkie toe is half an inch deviant, the relationship is doomed. - Icon
Forumosan avatar
bismarck
Maitreya Buddha (Mílèfó)
 
Posts: 11605
Joined: 07 Jan 2005, 04:44
Location: Tainan City 台彎, 台南
150 Recommends(s)
141 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: I have never read the good book so.....

Postby Zla'od » 11 Sep 2012, 06:30

If you compare the number of white Buddhists with the number of Asian Christians (I'll even throw in the black Buddhists), I think you'll find that Christianity comes out ahead in this exchange.
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) forbade withdrawing the penis from a free woman unless she gives permission. Ibn Majah transmitted it. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 950)
Zla'od
Fried Chicken-Parts Vendor (yán sū jī xiǎofàn)
Fried Chicken-Parts Vendor (yán sū jī xiǎofàn)
 
Posts: 962
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 08:36
62 Recognized(s)

6000

PreviousNext




 
 
 x

Return to Religion & Spirituality



Who is online

Forumosans browsing this forum: No Forumosans and 1 visitor

You don't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when. You can only decide how you're going to live. Now -- JOAN BAEZ