The Easter/resurrection rumble thread [warning: this is a free for all]

Re: The Easter/resurrection rumble thread [warning: this is a free for all]

Postby Confuzius » 11 Jun 2012, 04:20

bob wrote:That bugged me though because it:

1) Said that theologians had "dealt with" Biblical inconsistencies. To my knowledge they haven't satisfactorily "dealt with" any of the big issues.


Yeah, they dealt with them. You inserted the whole satisfactory/conclusiveness of it, not me.

bob wrote:2) You implied that some new answers had been forthcoming. Sorry, but I can't see evidence of that.


New answers HAVE been forthcoming! There's plenty evidence of that (I think you can use google). But here is one example that I linked to, I will say it briefly, the one concerning Genesis 1 & 2.

Briefly: 2 contradictory stories about the creation of humankind.

Classic religious answer (one among many): God first told the story in sort of a "short hand" (in ch. 1) and then gave the details (ch. 2)

Modern critical answer: different texts from competing traditions/versions that were lumped together when the 'final' version was redacted.

Voila! There you have it! (use google if you need clarification, google "genesis 1 and 2" there'll be tons of shit)

bob wrote:All that I really wanted to do was clear that up. At this point in history it is becoming harder and harder to defend the notion that the Bible is the inspired word of God. That is true mainly because of new archeological evidence (flight from Egypt - apparently never happened, but then surely you heard,) and because of fresh efforts to apply a textual analysis to the Bible as though it were any other work of literature, or in some cases to simply share with the public problems that have been well known for ages but not shared with the flock. That is where we are actually at.


I never defended the historicity of the bible...you jumped to that conclusion.

bob wrote:It is true that I don't know much about reincarnation except that it provided a framework for the caste system, probably one of the most repressive systems the world has ever seen. Buddhism itself (I am reading Emotional Awareness by the Dali Lama and some psychologist. Good book. Has a lot of information on controlling afflictive emotions) was the basis of for a brutal theocracy in Tibet until just recently. I sincerely doubt that the Dalai Lama would run the country that way again if given a chance. He has been influenced too much by science and secular humanism for that.


There are many different forms of Buddhism.

The Dalai Lama has already stated, many times that if Tibet was to become independent again, it would not go back to the way things were.

The Dalai Lama has also attempted to step down from being the political leader of the Tibetan people....the 'govt' in exile refuses to let him.

And however troubling the Tibetan theocracy was (not denying that) to call it "one of the most repressive systems the world has ever seen" is quite an overstatement I must say, but what is the use in dwelling in the "bad vs. worse" kind of arguments? :idunno:
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Re: The Easter/resurrection rumble thread [warning: this is a free for all]

Postby bob » 12 Jun 2012, 00:29

bob wrote:That bugged me though because it:

1) Said that theologians had "dealt with" Biblical inconsistencies. To my knowledge they haven't satisfactorily "dealt with" any of the big issues.


Yeah, they dealt with them. You inserted the whole satisfactory/conclusiveness of it, not me.

bob wrote:2) You implied that some new answers had been forthcoming. Sorry, but I can't see evidence of that.


New answers HAVE been forthcoming! There's plenty evidence of that (I think you can use google). But here is one example that I linked to, I will say it briefly, the one concerning Genesis 1 & 2.
Briefly: 2 contradictory stories about the creation of humankind.

Classic religious answer (one among many): God first told the story in sort of a "short hand" (in ch. 1) and then gave the details (ch. 2)

Modern critical answer: different texts from competing traditions/versions that were lumped together when the 'final' version was redacted.

Voila! There you have it! (use google if you need clarification, google "genesis 1 and 2" there'll be tons of shit)


Yeah, but I was looking for new answers that would support the notion that some supernatural element had anything to do with the writing of the text. Isn't it obvious at this point that that was what I was talking about? I mean, in the process of explaining to me that what I thought you were talking about wasn't really what you were talking about (though quite a good case has been made at this point that that "is" what you were talking about,) didn't it become clear what I was talking about? I never doubted that theologians (especially the faith based kind) weren't busy cooking up some nonsense or other trying to explain how the creator of the whole bloody universe managed to come up with such a crappy book. What I douted was whether any of that nonsense would amount to anything.

Essentially my position is this:

1) Yes, people tend toward magical thinking. For example, I was at the zoo yesterday trying out my infinite compassion (not kidding at all here) on an old monkey. I am watching her wonder around all creaky looking, hair falling out, skin all blotched, and I wondered if she ever got any. I am thinking to myself, by god that is one butt ugly looking monkey, but who knows, right? Anyway, just at that moment she wonders around and sort of plops herself down on this younger, reasonably virile looking monkey (just surmising here, it's so tough to assess the virility of monkeys actually) and tries to stir up a little action. It was a sort of blase affair with no result to speak of but for a second I had the feeling that god was talking to me. I mean what else could explain such an extraordinary co-incidence? The fact that monkeys spend half their lives screwing? Yes, when I later speculated on the event I concluded that is likely what it was. But for a moment there I was sure that a miraculous event was occurring and it felt wonderful, even though the implications of the sign were less than optimistic.

In other words I "get" it. It feels really good to believe in the supernatural. However...

2) No, there are no miraculous events. Whatever it was that created the universe (if indeed anything did,) it hasn't a speck of concern for anything that happens on this earth. If it did the world wouldn't contain so much pointless suffering.

3) Yes, delusions to the contray can be adaptive, especially to the individual.

4) No, they most certainly aren't always adaptive, especially to the broader world.

5) The challenge to humanity is to sort through this mess. It's an important challenge because if we don't sort it out progress on all manner of initiatives will be stalled and people will increase the rate at which they kill each other over their delusions.

I summarize this now because it is pretty much the last thing I will have to say on the issue, hopefully, for a long while. Good luck.
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Re: The Easter/resurrection rumble thread [warning: this is a free for all]

Postby Confuzius » 12 Jun 2012, 01:25

bob wrote:
Yeah, but I was looking for new answers that would support the notion that some supernatural element had anything to do with the writing of the text.


Why would you do that?

bob wrote: Isn't it obvious at this point that that was what I was talking about? I mean, in the process of explaining to me that what I thought you were talking about wasn't really what you were talking about (though quite a good case has been made at this point that that "is" what you were talking about,)


No, pretty poor case, look back at my original post...I even quoted it for you AGAIN.

bob wrote:Essentially my position is this:

1) Yes, people tend toward magical thinking. For example, I was at the zoo yesterday trying out my infinite compassion (not kidding at all here) on an old monkey. I am watching her wonder around all creaky looking, hair falling out, skin all blotched, and I wondered if she ever got any. I am thinking to myself, by god that is one butt ugly looking monkey, but who knows, right? Anyway, just at that moment she wonders around and sort of plops herself down on this younger, reasonably virile looking monkey (just surmising here, it's so tough to assess the virility of monkeys actually) and tries to stir up a little action. It was a sort of blase affair with no result to speak of but for a second I had the feeling that god was talking to me. I mean what else could explain such an extraordinary co-incidence? The fact that monkeys spend half their lives screwing? Yes, when I later speculated on the event I concluded that is likely what it was. But for a moment there I was sure that a miraculous event was occurring and it felt wonderful, even though the implications of the sign were less than optimistic.


Whoa....

bob wrote:In other words I "get" it. It feels really good to believe in the supernatural. However...

2) No, there are no miraculous events. Whatever it was that created the universe (if indeed anything did,) it hasn't a speck of concern for anything that happens on this earth. If it did the world wouldn't contain so much pointless suffering.


Now you sound like a Buddhist, be careful...

bob wrote:3) Yes, delusions to the contray can be adaptive, especially to the individual.

4) No, they most certainly aren't always adaptive, especially to the broader world.

5) The challenge to humanity is to sort through this mess. It's an important challenge because if we don't sort it out progress on all manner of initiatives will be stalled and people will increase the rate at which they kill each other over their delusions.

I summarize this now because it is pretty much the last thing I will have to say on the issue, hopefully, for a long while. Good luck.


Another whoa, goodluck as well!
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Re: The Easter/resurrection rumble thread [warning: this is a free for all]

Postby Karuna Dharmakaya » 31 Aug 2012, 13:38

How come when christians try to convert you they dont ever tell you these things about their deity?
EXAMPLE:HELLO all im a christian would you like to know about our god jesus the god of old and new test?did you know jesus once told us that we could sell our daughters into slavery (EX 21:7) and that as slave owners we had the right to beat our slaves almost to death as long as they dont die(EX 21:20-21)jesus also told us that we should kill people who try to convert us (DUET 13:6-18) also all these things listed below is NOT evil or sins (1 JOHN 3:4) since SIN is a TRANSGRESSION of the LAW it is NOT a sin to FOLLOW the law and do these things below.

(1)DUET 17:1-5 STONE UNBELEIVERS like me IS THIS GOOD or EVIL.
(2)DUET 13:6-18 KILL UNBELEIVERS (who try to do the same thing christians do SPEAK about your faith) is this GOOD or EVIL?
(3)LEV 24:16 KILL those who SPEAK bad things about your deity STONE them is this GOOD or EVIL? Could you do this
(4)EX 31:15 STONE those to death if they WORK on the SABBATH(dont work on Sunday or DIE)NUMB 15:32-36 AS your GOD COMMANDED they STONED him to DEATH for PICKING UP STICKS,is this deity GOOD or EVIL?
(5)EX 21:17 if u CURSE(insult) your parents U ARE TO BE KILLED is this good or EVIL?
(6)LEV 20:10 now i understand adultery is WRONG BUT what is MORE WRONG adultery or KILLING people who are ADULTERERS?if u wife cheats LEAVE HER dont BEAT her BRAINS in with a ROCK please dont FOLLOW this BOOK it will LEAD u and THOSE people in the past to HELL,IS this GOOD of EVIL?
(7)LEV 20:13 KILL GAYS is it GOOD or EVIL to kill gays for having the same sexual desire as U?
READ DUET 20:1-20 this is the LAWs of war where the christian deity ORDERED men to go an MASS MURDER everything that BREATHED man WOMAN AND CHILD(INFANTS) to STEAL land that wasn't even theirs.and here is PROOF of their DEITY sanctioned GENICIDE.JOSH,10:40,JOSH 6:21-27,DUET 20:13-14,NUMB 31:17-18,ISAIH 13:15,NUMB 21:34-35,DUET 2:30-34,JOSH 11:8-15,NUMB 25:1-9,JOSH,6:20-21
(8)Is good or evil to Stab to death the babies of your enemies?(1 sam 15:1-3)Numb 31:17-19

REALLY are these things listed the good teachings of a Pure higher being or a devil?
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Re: The Easter/resurrection rumble thread [warning: this is a free for all]

Postby the chief » 31 Aug 2012, 14:05

Karuna Dharmakaya wrote:How come when christians try to convert you they dont ever tell you these things about their deity?
EXAMPLE:HELLO all im a christian would you like to know about our god jesus the god of old and new test?did you know jesus once told us that we could sell our daughters into slavery (EX 21:7) and that as slave owners we had the right to beat our slaves almost to death as long as they dont die(EX 21:20-21)jesus also told us that we should kill people who try to convert us (DUET 13:6-18) also all these things listed below is NOT evil or sins (1 JOHN 3:4) since SIN is a TRANSGRESSION of the LAW it is NOT a sin to FOLLOW the law and do these things below.

(1)DUET 17:1-5 STONE UNBELEIVERS like me IS THIS GOOD or EVIL.
(2)DUET 13:6-18 KILL UNBELEIVERS (who try to do the same thing christians do SPEAK about your faith) is this GOOD or EVIL?
(3)LEV 24:16 KILL those who SPEAK bad things about your deity STONE them is this GOOD or EVIL? Could you do this
(4)EX 31:15 STONE those to death if they WORK on the SABBATH(dont work on Sunday or DIE)NUMB 15:32-36 AS your GOD COMMANDED they STONED him to DEATH for PICKING UP STICKS,is this deity GOOD or EVIL?
(5)EX 21:17 if u CURSE(insult) your parents U ARE TO BE KILLED is this good or EVIL?
(6)LEV 20:10 now i understand adultery is WRONG BUT what is MORE WRONG adultery or KILLING people who are ADULTERERS?if u wife cheats LEAVE HER dont BEAT her BRAINS in with a ROCK please dont FOLLOW this BOOK it will LEAD u and THOSE people in the past to HELL,IS this GOOD of EVIL?
(7)LEV 20:13 KILL GAYS is it GOOD or EVIL to kill gays for having the same sexual desire as U?
READ DUET 20:1-20 this is the LAWs of war where the christian deity ORDERED men to go an MASS MURDER everything that BREATHED man WOMAN AND CHILD(INFANTS) to STEAL land that wasn't even theirs.and here is PROOF of their DEITY sanctioned GENICIDE.JOSH,10:40,JOSH 6:21-27,DUET 20:13-14,NUMB 31:17-18,ISAIH 13:15,NUMB 21:34-35,DUET 2:30-34,JOSH 11:8-15,NUMB 25:1-9,JOSH,6:20-21
(8)Is good or evil to Stab to death the babies of your enemies?(1 sam 15:1-3)Numb 31:17-19

REALLY are these things listed the good teachings of a Pure higher being or a devil?



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Re: The Easter/resurrection rumble thread [warning: this is a free for all]

Postby bismarck » 31 Aug 2012, 14:15

Karuna Dharmakaya wrote:How come when christians try to convert you they dont ever tell you these things about their deity?
EXAMPLE:HELLO all im a christian would you like to know about our god jesus the god of old and new test?did you know jesus once told us that we could sell our daughters into slavery (EX 21:7) and that as slave owners we had the right to beat our slaves almost to death as long as they dont die(EX 21:20-21)jesus also told us that we should kill people who try to convert us (DUET 13:6-18) also all these things listed below is NOT evil or sins (1 JOHN 3:4) since SIN is a TRANSGRESSION of the LAW it is NOT a sin to FOLLOW the law and do these things below.

(1)DUET 17:1-5 STONE UNBELEIVERS like me IS THIS GOOD or EVIL.
(2)DUET 13:6-18 KILL UNBELEIVERS (who try to do the same thing christians do SPEAK about your faith) is this GOOD or EVIL?
(3)LEV 24:16 KILL those who SPEAK bad things about your deity STONE them is this GOOD or EVIL? Could you do this
(4)EX 31:15 STONE those to death if they WORK on the SABBATH(dont work on Sunday or DIE)NUMB 15:32-36 AS your GOD COMMANDED they STONED him to DEATH for PICKING UP STICKS,is this deity GOOD or EVIL?
(5)EX 21:17 if u CURSE(insult) your parents U ARE TO BE KILLED is this good or EVIL?
(6)LEV 20:10 now i understand adultery is WRONG BUT what is MORE WRONG adultery or KILLING people who are ADULTERERS?if u wife cheats LEAVE HER dont BEAT her BRAINS in with a ROCK please dont FOLLOW this BOOK it will LEAD u and THOSE people in the past to HELL,IS this GOOD of EVIL?
(7)LEV 20:13 KILL GAYS is it GOOD or EVIL to kill gays for having the same sexual desire as U?
READ DUET 20:1-20 this is the LAWs of war where the christian deity ORDERED men to go an MASS MURDER everything that BREATHED man WOMAN AND CHILD(INFANTS) to STEAL land that wasn't even theirs.and here is PROOF of their DEITY sanctioned GENICIDE.JOSH,10:40,JOSH 6:21-27,DUET 20:13-14,NUMB 31:17-18,ISAIH 13:15,NUMB 21:34-35,DUET 2:30-34,JOSH 11:8-15,NUMB 25:1-9,JOSH,6:20-21
(8)Is good or evil to Stab to death the babies of your enemies?(1 sam 15:1-3)Numb 31:17-19

REALLY are these things listed the good teachings of a Pure higher being or a devil?

Your entire premise is wrong. Those passages are in the Bible, but Jesus never said any of them. Those are the laws given unto Moses. Where he actually got them from is anyone's guess. God? Maybe, said Moses. Personally, I don't know as I wasn't there.
Even the New Testament (what Jesus said, i.e. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) can only be described as "allegedly said". Also, you should remember that the OT is basically the Jewish/Hebrew texts that the Vatican put together with the texts written after 70AD by (again, allegedly) followers of Jesus. Also, the Vatican decided to leave out various gospels and the Bible doesn't really represent the entire picture. In any event, it would be a massive stretch to say "Jesus said" anything you quoted above from the OT. :2cents:
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Re: The Easter/resurrection rumble thread [warning: this is a free for all]

Postby Confuzius » 31 Aug 2012, 23:38

bismarck wrote:
Karuna Dharmakaya wrote:How come when christians try to convert you they dont ever tell you these things about their deity?
EXAMPLE:HELLO all im a christian would you like to know about our god jesus the god of old and new test?did you know jesus once told us that we could sell our daughters into slavery (EX 21:7) and that as slave owners we had the right to beat our slaves almost to death as long as they dont die(EX 21:20-21)jesus also told us that we should kill people who try to convert us (DUET 13:6-18) also all these things listed below is NOT evil or sins (1 JOHN 3:4) since SIN is a TRANSGRESSION of the LAW it is NOT a sin to FOLLOW the law and do these things below.

(1)DUET 17:1-5 STONE UNBELEIVERS like me IS THIS GOOD or EVIL.
(2)DUET 13:6-18 KILL UNBELEIVERS (who try to do the same thing christians do SPEAK about your faith) is this GOOD or EVIL?
(3)LEV 24:16 KILL those who SPEAK bad things about your deity STONE them is this GOOD or EVIL? Could you do this
(4)EX 31:15 STONE those to death if they WORK on the SABBATH(dont work on Sunday or DIE)NUMB 15:32-36 AS your GOD COMMANDED they STONED him to DEATH for PICKING UP STICKS,is this deity GOOD or EVIL?
(5)EX 21:17 if u CURSE(insult) your parents U ARE TO BE KILLED is this good or EVIL?
(6)LEV 20:10 now i understand adultery is WRONG BUT what is MORE WRONG adultery or KILLING people who are ADULTERERS?if u wife cheats LEAVE HER dont BEAT her BRAINS in with a ROCK please dont FOLLOW this BOOK it will LEAD u and THOSE people in the past to HELL,IS this GOOD of EVIL?
(7)LEV 20:13 KILL GAYS is it GOOD or EVIL to kill gays for having the same sexual desire as U?
READ DUET 20:1-20 this is the LAWs of war where the christian deity ORDERED men to go an MASS MURDER everything that BREATHED man WOMAN AND CHILD(INFANTS) to STEAL land that wasn't even theirs.and here is PROOF of their DEITY sanctioned GENICIDE.JOSH,10:40,JOSH 6:21-27,DUET 20:13-14,NUMB 31:17-18,ISAIH 13:15,NUMB 21:34-35,DUET 2:30-34,JOSH 11:8-15,NUMB 25:1-9,JOSH,6:20-21
(8)Is good or evil to Stab to death the babies of your enemies?(1 sam 15:1-3)Numb 31:17-19

REALLY are these things listed the good teachings of a Pure higher being or a devil?

Your entire premise is wrong. Those passages are in the Bible, but Jesus never said any of them. Those are the laws given unto Moses. Where he actually got them from is anyone's guess. God? Maybe, said Moses. Personally, I don't know as I wasn't there.
Even the New Testament (what Jesus said, i.e. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) can only be described as "allegedly said". Also, you should remember that the OT is basically the Jewish/Hebrew texts that the Vatican put together with the texts written after 70AD by (again, allegedly) followers of Jesus. Also, the Vatican decided to leave out various gospels and the Bible doesn't really represent the entire picture. In any event, it would be a massive stretch to say "Jesus said" anything you quoted above from the OT. :2cents:


But according to mainstream xianity, jesus=god. So if it was recorded in the old testament, which is the word of god recorded by moses, then essentially jesus said it...just not in his human form, in his god form or what have you.
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Re: The Easter/resurrection rumble thread [warning: this is a free for all]

Postby bismarck » 01 Sep 2012, 13:12

Sorry, I have no idea what "xianity" is. Sounds like it comes from the same educationally challenged school of thought as terms like, "JLo", "Xtina" or "Brangelina" ...

Next thing you know we'll be talking about "xmas", the birth of "JC", and I'm afraid I couldn't keep up. Piesay.

Genesis (and elsewhere refers to Him the same way) says Jesus was the Word, and the Word was with God etc. So you could interpret that in many ways. I, for one, wouldn't go so far as to say "Jesus said" any of the above, but go for it if you want to. There's more I'd like to add, but I need to go work. Perhaps later.
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Re: The Easter/resurrection rumble thread [warning: this is a free for all]

Postby Confuzius » 01 Sep 2012, 19:48

bismarck wrote:Sorry, I have no idea what "xianity" is. Sounds like it comes from the same educationally challenged school of thought as terms like, "JLo", "Xtina" or "Brangelina" ...

Next thing you know we'll be talking about "xmas", the birth of "JC", and I'm afraid I couldn't keep up. Piesay.


mai kei ki...I will try not to leave you in the dust with my hip use of internet slang.

Genesis (and elsewhere refers to Him the same way) says Jesus was the Word, and the Word was with God etc. So you could interpret that in many ways. I, for one, wouldn't go so far as to say "Jesus said" any of the above, but go for it if you want to. There's more I'd like to add, but I need to go work. Perhaps later.


Genesis don't say that, its a gospel, I think John? Yeah, its paraphrasing (rephrasing) genesis there, but thats not Genesis. Genesis does not mention Jesus.

Jesus is not mentioned, anywhere in the Old Testament.

However, xian (I think its spelled k-r-ch-i-yun) exegetes have always attempted to provide verses where Jesus was ALLUDED to in the Old Testament (but of course they would, right?).
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