Father not on household registration can i take my child back to USA?

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Re: Father not on household registration can i take my child back to USA?

Postby tommy525 » 12 Jun 2012, 09:28

It takes commandos to storm rebel camps in Somalia to attempt to rescue hostages. And they are not always successful, hostages end up dead, along with kidnappers.

IF you take the logistics of such an attempt in Taiwan, you have one hell of a headache.

First you have to have piles of money to hire specialists from Blackrock (or whatever they call themselves these days). They cost heaps of dough.

Then you have to case out the child's whereabouts and find the best time to snatch him/her. The police will no doubt be called and an alert put out islandwide. You have to hide the child and then you have to depart the island somehow. Cant do it at the airports. You have to attempt a departure by sea, perhaps with a rubber dinghy meeting up with a larger vessel offshore. You cant do this at night when the Taiwanese army coastal patrol is especially vigilant. You have to do this in daylight. But you have to move fast from dinghy to larger vessel. And hopefully quickly go into international waters 12 miles offshore. Then you must meet up with an ocean going vessel to take the child to a non taiwanese port.

You could enlist the help of Mainland Chinese fishing vessels in international waters. Chances are more then even that a TAiwanese vessel wouldnt cooperate.

It will have to be quick , furiously quick and highly efficient. Cant let the Taiwan cops get to the scene before you escape with the child or else you will have a standoff.

What are you going to do then? The US govt is not going to step in and demand you be released off the island with the child, or to keep you from serious prison.

Kidnapping carries the death penalty in Taiwan. You will be kidnapping the child under the laws of the rock.

The US govt itself would have a hard time getting the child off the rock without the TW govt's consent.

You would have to have some serious weight with Uncle Sam to get him to sponsor such an undertaking.

Fact is, its easy to just mouth off, but such an operation is not a workable one.
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Re: Father not on household registration can i take my child back to USA?

Postby spaint » 12 Jun 2012, 09:49

Tommy, your commando method is even more direct than I was thinking. Really, I was thinking more of hired goons taking the kid to a fishing boat or something, and making sure the mother stays quiet till the kid's long gone. It's still not a good idea, but reading stories like this makes me want to fight fire with fire - we all know the legal route is a galactic waste of time and will only lead to tears and frustration.
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Re: Father not on household registration can i take my child back to USA?

Postby tommy525 » 12 Jun 2012, 09:51

spaint wrote:Tommy, your commando method is even more direct than I was thinking. Really, I was thinking more of hired goons taking the kid to a fishing boat or something, and making sure the mother stays quiet till the kid's long gone. I suppose it's still not a good idea, but reading stories like this makes me want to fight fire with fire - we all know the legal route is a galactic waste of time and will only lead to tears and frustration.


Would you trust your life to Taiwanese goons? I know I wouldnt.

Which TW goon is going to risk a death penalty rap kidnapping a Taiwanese child in Taiwan ?? And when something goes wrong, as invariably it is going to. They will be exacting their vengeance on who? Yes YOU, the person who got them in this mess.
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Re: Father not on household registration can i take my child back to USA?

Postby spaint » 12 Jun 2012, 10:04

Tommy, you're making me feel dumber and dumber. I guess the OP's best chance would be to weasel his way back into the mother's confidence and strike when she least expects it. Still don't think he'll get anywhere going the legal route.
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Re: Father not on household registration can i take my child back to USA?

Postby tommy525 » 12 Jun 2012, 10:52

spaint wrote:Tommy, you're making me feel dumber and dumber. I guess the OP's best chance would be to weasel his way back into the mother's confidence and strike when she least expects it. Still don't think he'll get anywhere going the legal route.


Haha that wasn't the intent , but yeah its would be an impossible undertaking only Tom Cruise and his Mission Impossible Team would even attempt.
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Re: Father not on household registration can i take my child back to USA?

Postby pgdaddy1 » 12 Jun 2012, 12:43

spaint wrote: I guess the OP's best chance would be to weasel his way back into the mother's confidence and strike when she least expects it.


And that also will not work.

I don't want to go through the possibilities and permutations because it doesn't help the OP at all. I've been through it all. The fact is, the mother has de facto custody of the child in Taiwan now. She will decide if and when the father can see him, and if the child can travel out of Taiwan when he/she is older.

It's quite unlikely that there can be reconciliation between the parents now, after such an abusive relationship. Unless the mother can face the facts about herself, and seek counselling- which the Taiwanese rarely do.

The father is in a terrible situation and I know what he is going through, missing his child. But there is only one realistic way for him to achieve his aim (I hope) which is that the child is happy now and grows up happy. And that there is only one realistic way to achieve that, which is to keep the mother happy and help to provide her with support, financial and otherwise, to give the child a decent upbringing. He needs to put his resentment and other negative feelings towards the mother aside and focus only on that.

It's never going to be easy for a mixed race child growing up in Taiwan with an absent parent, and I struggle with this every day, but I am sure that there are strategies to deal with this and if both parents can work together on that then all the better.
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Re: Father not on household registration can i take my child back to USA?

Postby tommy525 » 12 Jun 2012, 14:58

Dont worry PGdaddy. By the way, agree with your valid points. Best approach there is given she has checkmated him.

I grew up without the physical presence of my dad in my life. First time I met him I was already 19 years old. But my mom always said good things about my father, never a bad or unkind word. And always read me the letters he sent us every few months. I thought that was how a lot of dads were, just out there but not here, but it mattered not because he was here so to speak. Course i relished personal freedom and since early childhood had been extremely independent. I would go out and stay out all day long. Having one less parent to boss me around , I saw as a great thing, not a bad thing.

But I have actually no idea what it is to have a dad growing up because i didnt have one. Therefore there was nothing to miss.

I don't think I came out damaged in any way tho. So they too will be fine !

Now exactly the thing to do is to gain the mom's appreciation so that she will not instill in them a hatred for their father.
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Re: Father not on household registration can i take my child back to USA?

Postby tommy525 » 12 Jun 2012, 15:35

By the way, I have been asked to "defend" , as it were some of my previous statements regarding the Emily Yuan case.

I had not meant to say her moms action in "kidnapping" her from her father's custody as granted by an US court was legal or implied to be legal by the TW govt.

But its important to understand the situation from a Country or Entity's perspective and the same's "legal" authority to effect a particular action.

Even if the TW govt (and the govt is composed of many people and is not ONE person) has statutes against kidnapping and escaping justice as meted out by a proper court of law, it has to abide by its own statutes when asked to effect an action.

We have Emily's mother kidnapping (in the eyes of the particular US Court ) her child and escaping out of the United States. And the TW govt is seen as being complacent by some in helping the mother "get away".

Lets examine this a bit more carefully and dissect the various parts k ?

Emily's mother is an ROC citizen. Emily herself has rights to ROC citizenship. Her mother has the right to apply for a passport for her daughter. They have the right to enter Taiwan and to reside there.

The fact that Emilys mom is not allowed to depart from the USA or has or has no custody over Emily is not the concern of the TW govt when it came to the issuance of a passport for Emily.

The TW govt was asked to issue a passport for Emily by her mom. And it did so because it was a legal request.

There was no govt to govt treaty then between the US and the tW govt to prevent the issuance of a passport for a minor child who is a dual national of TW and the USA where it could be used to depart the USA against the wishes of a American Court.

IF there was such a treaty in place to administer this particular action, then said action would have been handled according to the treaty. Fact is there wasn't.

The fact that the passport could be used to "illegally" depart the USA for Emily is not a subject to be "legally" (per the laws of the ROC) ruled upon.

Emily's mom was within her rights (under TW law) to request a passport for her daughter. And her daughter was within HER rights to possess an ROC passport as she was indeed a citizen of the ROC. The fact that she has other citizenship is not of concern to the TW govt.

They then departed the USA and entered TAiwan (again legal in Taiwans govt's eye) . There is no extradiction treaty between the USA and Taiwan and there is no treaty regarding children of dual nationality (Taiwan and USA) and the jurisdiction of US courts in the matter.

INitially when the father presented himself the TW govt consented to Emily's departure with her father back to the USA. But Emily's mom got some supporters of her own and some TW lawmakers to her aid. They correctly pointed out that US Courts have no jurisdiction in the matter because there was no treaty in effect and that the TW govt and police and courts have no legal basis to demand that the mother surrender her daughter to be taken out of Taiwan by the father.

Thus the court found itself between a rock and a hard place. It was not able to demand Emilys mom give up her child. It was not able to demand that the child be repatriated back to the USA.

There was no legal basis for such a demand to be made. The fact is that IF Emily's mom wanted Emily to depart Taiwan and go back to the USA, the court has no say in saying YES or NO . It is within her moms right. And if her mom refused for Emily to depart Taiwan, it was also within her right as Emily's mom. And Emily is under-age and is not able to make her own decision in the matter. Until she herself reaches legal age, then she can make her own decision.

so the TW courts are tied. EVen if they were sympathetic to the US court ruling. And they appeared to be. Their hands were tied. Because a govt can not do things without legal grounds.

Per Taiwan law, it didnt matter of Emily's mom had been a prostitute or not. It didnt matter if a foreign court granted custody of the child to the father. It didnt matter because it can not rule on the matter.

IT can only rule where it has jurisdiction and a legal basis.


The TW govt can only allow Emily to depart Taiwan if her mother wishes and must allow her to stay if her mother wishes as well.

The US govt has nothing to say in the matter either as it has no treaty governing such a case.

Now if Emily had been grossly mistreated by the tW authorities then Uncle Sam can intervene because Emily is also a US citizen. But Uncle Sam himself acknowledges that a dual national is 100pct within the jurisdiction of a nation that he/she is a citizen thereof.

IN fact even if he/she were not a citizen, the fact that he/she is in a particular country means he/she is subject to her laws. PERIOD.

This post was recommended by Northcoast Surfer (12 Jun 2012, 15:40)
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Re: Father not on household registration can i take my child back to USA?

Postby spaint » 12 Jun 2012, 17:04

pgdaddy1 wrote:
spaint wrote: I guess the OP's best chance would be to weasel his way back into the mother's confidence and strike when she least expects it.


And that also will not work.

I don't want to go through the possibilities and permutations because it doesn't help the OP at all. I've been through it all. The fact is, the mother has de facto custody of the child in Taiwan now. She will decide if and when the father can see him, and if the child can travel out of Taiwan when he/she is older.

It's quite unlikely that there can be reconciliation between the parents now, after such an abusive relationship. Unless the mother can face the facts about herself, and seek counselling- which the Taiwanese rarely do.


I would be willing to try, if I were in the OP's shoes. I'd keep the act up for just long enough to get the mother to agree to a family vacation to Disneyland Hong Kong, where I'd proceed to dump the bitch and go home with my child.
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Re: Father not on household registration can i take my child back to USA?

Postby pgdaddy1 » 13 Jun 2012, 01:34

spaint wrote:
I would be willing to try, if I were in the OP's shoes. I'd keep the act up for just long enough to get the mother to agree to a family vacation to Disneyland Hong Kong, where I'd proceed to dump the bitch and go home with my child.


Very little chance of the mother, or "the bitch" as you eloquently put it, agreeing to this. If she takes the child to HK, she is subject to the Hague Convention on International Child Abduction. The father can apply for an airport block to stop her removing the child from HK pending court proceedings. And given that the father has custody in the US, which is another signatory to the Convention, it is likely that the child would be returned to the father.

The mother probably knows nothing about the Hague Convention, but she knows damn well that what she has done is illegal and that she will have no protection outside Taiwan.
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