Women's Forum - Are private forums necessary?

[TwoTongues]

And thanks for moving Michelle Zen's picture to temp, I would disagree that it's totally OT, as it was meant to demonstrate a point in a fun way, but certainly if some are offended then whatever.

Gosh, I was not aware that Michelle Zen had any opinions about whether the use of Pinyin with beginning students of Chinese led to foreign accent. Or that the looks of the teacher in question had anything to do with the use of Pinyin.

No but it has bearing on whether he should keep his tutor or not, which was asked on-topic - and it proved true (tangentially)!!! Just one "man's" way of expressing it.

But why are men any different? Do you not see negative comments about men floating around? Who the hell cares if there are bathroom jokes and Farrelly Brothers humor in the forums? This is a country where the average male expat has significantly more opportunities for relationships with local females than do average female expats, yet we can not always discuss them openly and in the way we like to without getting complaints of sexism and juvenility (Ok I made up the word).

You can discuss whatever you like, including "juvenile" topics, sex, etc. The objection the ladies have is that when a woman tries to discuss a topic in the open forums, the guys pile on with the puerile jokes that are unrelated to the question. We don't care if you discuss all the details of your latest conquest. But it would be nice (but seemingly impossible, without a separate forum) for a woman to be able to raise a question and get an answer, rather than a bunch of unrelated BS, in a handful of cases. And these are the topics that end up in the women's forum, and are handled quite differently to the way they would have ended up being handled "in the open".

Your implication is that women don't go OT (though I admit I've seen fewer of that than men doing so, though that might be because there seem to be quite a bit more men than women on here). And from my admittedly short experience here, it's moderators who go OT about as much as the rest of us! Is it really so hard to filter out the weeds?

But anyway I'm agreeing with you, but I think fair is fair, and in return we should have a complimentary (as in matching, not as in free) men's forum.

So maybe Men should have a forum only for men in which we can discuss those topics freely. As you said earlier, if requested, men should have a men's only forum, as should gays and other sexual orientations and cultural groups who have a "different way of discussing things".

I hereby cast my vote for a men-only forum in which we are free to be as puerile as we want without getting temp'd or banned. OK so no porn or explicit nudity, and no threats of violence or ignorant boxcutter jokes, but the rest is a free for all.

Doesn't bother me if the men want their own forum, although it has been previously pointed out on many occasions that they already do, in essence. It's called Forumosa, given the preponderance of male posters. But if y'all want to lobby for The Puerile Forum and get a qualified gatekeeper to judge if prospective members are childish enough -- be my guest!

As a wise man once said "So let it be written, so let it be done!"

[Chewycorns]

Because there are substantial differences in how women discuss (look up the linguistic references if you don't believe me).

I agree with you here, but I don't think that makes segregation (whether physical or virtual desirable). Male and female thinking patterns are the same in the womb until about 6 weeks or so after conception, when men are bombarded with testosterone. This causes fundamental differences in the way girls and boys think and learn. Girls tend to be stronger communicators, more emphathetic, more respectful of authority etc. whereas men are usually more aggressive but better abstract thinkers.

Because of their stronger empathetic skills, stronger communications skills, and respect for structured environments, girls often perform much better in mediocre public school environments. Perhaps, following your logic , it would be better to segregate all of the sexes in elementary and junior high etc. they way they do in some Medieval Middle East regimes. It would provide boys with a place to discuss things where they don't have to critiqued or feel ashamed for their less developed communication or empathy skills. Where their abstract thinking can actually be valued by specially selected educators (like mods) instead of belittled by so many inferior teachers.

sexist comments, belittling humor, bathroom jokes, puerile comments, etc. etc.

Bullshit. When you have a group of women together, there is just as much gutter talk. People are people and saying that these characteristics are inherently a male trait on Forumosa is just the kind of tribalism that should be combatted at every opportunity. If the roles were reversed and Forumosa was primarily a female site, there would be just as much gutter talk. Would males though be asking for a private forum? Of course not.

Having a place where a foreign woman can speak freely about the issues related to being a foreign woman in Taiwan strengthens the entire foreign community in Taiwan.

I disagree. Women that decide to live in developing countries are a tough, strange breed (just like the male expats that come over). This is a univeral trait that can't be split by gender despite the fact that Women's Studies grads and other hyper-educated people might want to infuse their own biases into this subject. Creating a separate forum that basically provides princesses with special treatment and privacy comes across like 19th Century paternalism to me. What's next? A finishing school for lady Forumosans so they can learn to bake, waltz, and marry into a blue-blood family? Sorry, I'd prefer for females to survive in the real world. That's full equality and that's what real feminists (and I consider myself one) should be fighting for.

[Jaboney]

Sorry, I'd prefer for females to survive in the real world.

Speaking of the real world, I'd prefer it if you.... Nevermind. If it hasn't happened yet, it's never going to.

[Chewycorns]

Sorry, I'd prefer for females to survive in the real world.

Speaking of the real world, I'd prefer it if you.... Nevermind. If it hasn't happened yet, it's never going to.

Always attack the messenger and not the message, eh?

[Jaboney]

Always attack the messenger and not the message, eh?

When was the last time you got the message, Chewycorns?

[Chris]

The reason there is a women's forum is because the female participants on this site have determined there's a compelling need for one, and the admins agree.

[TwoTongues]

If the roles were reversed and Forumosa was primarily a female site, there would be just as much gutter talk. Would males though be asking for a private forum? Of course not.

Actually, I would ask for it, so I could make penis jokes without getting Snoo-Snoo'd.

Creating a separate forum that basically provides princesses with special treatment and privacy comes across like 19th Century paternalism to me. What's next? A finishing school for lady Forumosans so they can learn to bake, waltz, and marry into a blue-blood family?

That's a huge stretch Chewy, why not come back to the real world. It's a frickin forum, not a Million woman March on Washington. Based on the moderators I've met in person on this site, 19th century paternalism is about as far away as Lecter-style cannibalism (with the exception of urodacus, who would eat anything if it were coated in chili peppers... or cheese...). They're just trying to be open-minded and fair I'd say.

But we should still get our men's forum under the same philosophy.

[Gao Bohan]

Because there are substantial differences in how women discuss (look up the linguistic references if you don't believe me). And the community we are building is the foreign community in Taiwan. It helps women who are part of that community to have a place to discuss things where we do not have to constantly wade through (pick as many as apply) sexist comments, belittling humor, bathroom jokes, puerile comments, etc. etc. Having a place where a foreeign woman can speak freely about the issues related to being a foreign woman in Taiwan strengthens the entire foreign community in Taiwan.

As I said, I get why women would prefer to discuss certain topics among themselves. But what is happening the building of two communities - one exclusive to women, one open to both men and women.

Likewise, there could be a gay forum or a Spanish language forum or a Buddhist youth forum. But these would be separate, isolated communities. Sure, members may participate in the general forum sometimes, but then they'd go back to their sandboxes.

I disagree that creating segregated forums has helped to strengthen the larger community. I have not seen any noticeable increase in the number of women or German-speakers participating in the general forums, have you? Sure there are some new faces, but others have left. The demographic makeup now seems about the same as it always has.

But if the goal is to bolster multiple, exclusive groups, then I'd say the new forums have done a good job. :thumbsup:

[Jaboney]

I disagree that creating segregated forums has helped to strengthen the larger community. I have not seen any noticeable increase in the number of women or German-speakers participating in the general forums, have you? Sure there are some new faces, but others have left. The demographic makeup now seems about the same as it always has.

But if the goal is to bolster multiple, exclusive groups, then I'd say the new forums have done a good job.

You may wish to reconsider your criteria for 'strengthening the larger community'. (Not that I'm sure that's the proper metric in the first place.) Why measure it in number of members? Perhaps user satisfaction is a better criterion. (Mostly) English-language users with ties to Taiwan is a fairly limited pool to begin with: the prospects for growth aren't exactly unlimited. But those who are here may be significantly more satisfied and better served because there's a Women's Forum, German Forum, ect. Take away IP and Tech, and while I'd still be around, I wouldn't get nearly as much out of f.com.

[Gao Bohan]

Take away IP and Tech, and while I'd still be around, I wouldn't get nearly as much out of f.com.

But those forums are open to everybody. Don't you think that's slightly different than a locked forum exclusive to one gender?