Kindergarten teaching illegal for good reason?

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Re: Kindergarten teaching illegal for good reason?

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 08 Dec 2011, 11:00

PigBloodCake wrote:Same scenario here but reverse the language situation and you get the picture of why the 'wan govt is adamant on removing English from kindy.


Yet it doesn't take the next logical step and remove it from elementary, junior and senior high school, as well as university as a compulsory subject!

Offer it as an elective for people who are really interested in it, and make sure the teachers are trained exceptionally well and the materials used in class (and the tests) are of high quality. At the moment, they're teaching a whole lot of people really badly. Better to concentrate on fewer people (who want to be there) and do it really well for those people.
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Re: Kindergarten teaching illegal for good reason?

Postby heimuoshu » 08 Dec 2011, 11:07

I wouldn't go that far but I know a few people here who have reached (CEFR) a C2 level of proficiency without living abroad. With all the books, movies and Internet available, it is not impossible to get to a near native like level without living abroad. I even know a teacher who has taught students up to C1 (Cambridge Advanced) and IELTS 7.5 and 8 and he has never lived abroad. His English is excellent and so are his students'.
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Re: Kindergarten teaching illegal for good reason?

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 08 Dec 2011, 11:22

heimuoshu wrote:I wouldn't go that far but I know a few people here who have reached (CEFR) a C2 level of proficiency without living abroad. With all the books, movies and Internet available, it is not impossible to get to a near native like level without living abroad. I even know a teacher who has taught students up to C1 (Cambridge Advanced) and IELTS 7.5 and 8 and he has never lived abroad. His English is excellent and so are his students'.


Sure, but the trouble is that everyone else labours -- grinds might be a better word -- through the worst Chinglish possible. A student brought me a test worksheet yesterday. About 25% of the questions were bad questions that contained spelling errors (that made more than one answer possible), questions with two possible answers, questions with grammatical errors that made no answers possible, questions based on a reading with "correct" answers that were not in the reading and weren't implied by the reading, etc. This morning, the student and I went to his teacher and I explained the problem(s) with each question. She said she'd look into it, which really meant she'll do no such thing. It will be business as usual. Why? Because I can tell that she understands about 25% of what I say to her when I speak to her. I also know that if I asked her to do anything other than a cloze test herself (i.e. write something real such as a letter or essay), she'd struggle. In other words, her own understanding of English is tenuous, at best.

Further to that, a couple of weeks ago, I looked at some of the student workbooks at my elementary school. They belonged to third or fourth grade students (I forget which, but in either case, the English was very low level). One workbook had been done by the teacher to figure out the answers. The English (and it was just for cloze test answers) was terrible. There was literally a problem with every second answer.

It's the blind leading the bloody blind in this country most of the time. They won't throw some decent money at attracting and/or training the best of the best, yet English Villages (which cost somewhere in the vicinity of 30 million NTD to set up and run for the first five years) are popping up all over the place.
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Re: Kindergarten teaching illegal for good reason?

Postby bigduke6 » 08 Dec 2011, 13:32

In my opinion(As I said, my opinion), to many people look at this from a purely academic POV, and not from a practical, real world POV.

Unless you are planning to do a PHD in English, the goal is effective communication. Whether you like it or not, English is the one international language. This is why parents want their kids to learn English. It opens up plenty of future opportunities for them which would not be available if they did not have the language.

As I said in an earlier post, communication is the key in the real world.

There are millions of people around the world (Taiwan, Germany, France, Holland, Croatia, Iceland, Finland. This list goes on and on BTW) that speak their own version of Chinglish as English is not their mother tongue. This enables them to communicate across what would otherwise be huge language barriers.

I have seen this first hand on thousands of occasions.
Is there English perfect? No.
Do they make mistakes with grammar? Yes.
Do they sometimes not know a specific word? Yes.
However, they can still catch a taxi, do business, have a conversation, get directions somewhere etc etc etc.

Again, the systems here might leave a lot do be desired. From kindy up to postgraduate level.

As I said those foreigners teaching in Taiwan with education degrees are not experts on TAIWANs educational system. The same would apply to a Lithuanian tax lawyer and Taiwans tax system.

Sure they have more insight, but they are not experts.

Edit: I would like to thank heimuoshu for messaging me to tell me I typed "there" instead of "their".
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Re: Kindergarten teaching illegal for good reason?

Postby funkymonkey » 08 Dec 2011, 13:46

bigduke6 wrote:As I said those foreigners teaching in Taiwan with education degrees are not experts on TAIWANs educational system. The same would apply to a Lithuanian tax lawyer and Taiwans tax system.

Sure they have more insight, but they are not experts.

Honestly, no one in this entire thread is an expert (no matter how much chest thumping they do). We can only give our opinions based on personal experience. My belief is that teaching English to young learners is in no way harmful. I would say it's actually the opposite. Being a good kindergarten teacher doesn't simply mean having a piece of paper with a nice stamp on it.
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Re: Kindergarten teaching illegal for good reason?

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 08 Dec 2011, 13:56

funkymonkey wrote:
bigduke6 wrote:As I said those foreigners teaching in Taiwan with education degrees are not experts on TAIWANs educational system. The same would apply to a Lithuanian tax lawyer and Taiwans tax system.

Sure they have more insight, but they are not experts.

Honestly, no one in this entire thread is an expert (no matter how much chest thumping they do). We can only give our opinions based on personal experience. My belief is that teaching English to young learners is in no way harmful. I would say it's actually the opposite. Being a good kindergarten teacher doesn't simply mean having a piece of paper with a nice stamp on it.


Having a medical degree doesn't make one a good doctor either. Teaching must be the only profession that is routinely regarded in this way.
And you coming in to scold us all like some kind of sour-puss kindie assistant who favors olive cardigans and lemon drinks without sugar. -- Muzha Man

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Re: Kindergarten teaching illegal for good reason?

Postby funkymonkey » 08 Dec 2011, 14:11

GuyInTaiwan wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
bigduke6 wrote:As I said those foreigners teaching in Taiwan with education degrees are not experts on TAIWANs educational system. The same would apply to a Lithuanian tax lawyer and Taiwans tax system.

Sure they have more insight, but they are not experts.

Honestly, no one in this entire thread is an expert (no matter how much chest thumping they do). We can only give our opinions based on personal experience. My belief is that teaching English to young learners is in no way harmful. I would say it's actually the opposite. Being a good kindergarten teacher doesn't simply mean having a piece of paper with a nice stamp on it.


Having a medical degree doesn't make one a good doctor either. Teaching must be the only profession that is routinely regarded in this way.

Maybe it's because there isn't one perfect way to teach every student. As you know, different methods are always needed depending on the student. A broken leg can be treated pretty much the same way every time. It's something that can be mastered. I think teachers need to be more flexible and constantly adapt. It's difficult to be an expert in that.
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Re: Kindergarten teaching illegal for good reason?

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 08 Dec 2011, 14:40

funkymonkey: Nonsense. Medicine is not an exact science and there's plenty of room for misdiagnosis or bad practice. There are people who can pass medical exams, but are absolutely terrible at actually working as doctors. The reason doctors are better at what they do is twofold. Firstly, they receive much longer and more intensive training. Secondly, there are much better incentives for attracting the bright, ambitious, etc. to medicine.

Anyway, that's beside the point. There are things that are more and less effective in teaching. There are educational theories, and there is educational research to back certain things up. There's this great meme in the English speaking world that people can walk into a classroom without having had exposure to any of the research, without any training, without any coaching, without any observation, without feedback, etc. and just be a fantastic teacher just because that person is inherently a fantastic teacher. As though anyone could just do any really complicated job well simply because they're inherently fantastic. Some people can be good teachers without training, but they'd be better teachers if they went through a process. That does not imply that everyone who receives training will be a good teacher, just as training in any other profession does not imply greatness or competence either, though if the training is rigorous, it should weed out most of the bad people.

The results of this are really telling in the English speaking world. There is a complete disdain for teachers in English speaking countries, and yet people won't acknowledge that some countries, such as Finland, have such successful education systems precisely because teachers receive a lot of training and are well-regarded by the rest of society. No, of course, lots of people in English speaking countries just want to talk about how crappy teachers are, and how teacher training doesn't mean anything, when the teacher training is woefully inadequate and the incentives for bright, motivated people to enter (and remain in) teaching simply aren't there in English speaking countries. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy of idiocy. Furthermore, the people who make these kinds of comments that one doesn't need any kind of training to be a teacher are the kinds of people who would never set foot in a classroom in a school in a bad neighbourhood. They would never send their kids there either. Increasingly, the middle class won't discipline their own kids in the home, and then have the gall to complain about a lack of discipline in school (and will also complain if their little darlings are singled out for poor behaviour). It's intellectual and moral laziness of the highest order. They'll complain all day about how easy it is, or how the system is a joke, yet they won't actually do anything to address that.

What's so bizarre in Taiwan is that in the public sector, people actually do have a lot of respect for teachers, yet in the private sector, the Anglosphere's mindset seems to have taken hold. There are all sorts of flaws in the Taiwanese government education system, but you can be sure that if Taiwanese mathematics or science or history teachers at junior high school used giant squeaky hammers or sticky balls and played lots of games, the parents would be up in arms about it. Funny that.

This is really what this thread is about. Few people here would want their own kids educated in the way EFL is taught in this country. It's okay to them though because they have a vested financial interest, and besides, it's only Taiwan. Who cares if there are standards, right? There's no shortage of people on these forums complaining about how shit the Taiwanese police are, or how bad the roads/architecture/pollution/corruption/labour laws/whatever is/are, and generally complaining about how stupid Taiwanese people are or how they don't think about things, but many of the serial complainers fall quiet on the issue of education here precisely because of their huge vested interest in maintaining that. Such people are no different to the politician awarding a government contract to his buddy: corrupt to the core.
And you coming in to scold us all like some kind of sour-puss kindie assistant who favors olive cardigans and lemon drinks without sugar. -- Muzha Man

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England. -- George Orwell
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Re: Kindergarten teaching illegal for good reason?

Postby Charlie Jack » 08 Dec 2011, 15:16

GuyInTaiwan wrote:Such people are no different to the shoeshine man, yard man, or housekeeper of the politician awarding a government contract to his buddy: corrupt to the core extent of wanting to keep body and soul together.


There ya go. Prob'ly impossible to cure that bad of a case of the literary vapors, but I think I got it considerably closer to something like the truth.

Some of you fellows might need to switch to decaf.
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Re: Kindergarten teaching illegal for good reason?

Postby Border Security » 08 Dec 2011, 15:27

GuyInTaiwan wrote:
There's this great meme in the English speaking world that people can walk into a classroom without having had exposure to any of the research, without any training, without any coaching, without any observation, without feedback, etc. and just be a fantastic teacher just because that person is inherently a fantastic teacher. As though anyone could just do any really complicated job well simply because they're inherently fantastic. Some people can be good teachers without training...



Teaching is unique insofar as everyone has spent a significant amount of time in their lives observing the skill. Many people could walk into a classroom and do a good job because they spent most of their youths watching the skill of teaching in practice. The craft of teaching is not as esoteric and inaccessible as other professions. People didn't spend 12+ years of their lives observing engineers doing their jobs, now did they? And, when we get right down to it, teaching is at its essence simply presenting information in such a way as another person can learn it.

Anyway, we're going OT with this line. Educators are educators. Language teaching and being a language teacher in Taiwan are different beasts altogether, much as some would rather not admit to it.
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