Have to ask: why do people come to Taiwan to be teachers?

[Charlie Phillips]

For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country.Then when he was come into Galilee, the Galilaeans received him, having seen all the things that he did at Jerusalem at the feast: for they also went unto the feast.

So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine.

That's why.

[Arteta]

after 22 years in the UK you tend to miss the culture and only notice the downsides.

I agree. All I never notice about the UK now is the dull weather and the horrible architecture (typical council estates) and chavs. I want to avoid the pessimistic attitudes and the chav culture. I went travelling on my own to Thailand, Cambodia & Vietnam and I loved it. I enjoyed being in Asia. Many people hate Bangkok but I loved how large and busy it was. They had like 6 or 7 shopping centers (malls) and some of them contained aquariums and large food halls etc. It was just so much more advanced in a way and it put the UK to shame. I enjoyed the heat and I liked how fast-paced it was and I loved taking the BTR (Skytrain) everywhere. I also loved that I could go down south, rent a motorbike and explore a bit, for so cheap.

Don't get me wrong, the UK has a rich history and has many securities, but I'm so sick of too many aspects and I need to escape. Teaching English is not exactly my dream and it will not be my future career, but if I can go over with my (soon-to-be) degree and earn a decent wage in proportion to my expenditure then I'll be happy. I'll try hard at teaching English, it won't exactly be amazing, but I'll do well and I'll want to make a difference. I'll be going with my girlfriend, so hopefully we can share accommodation and have even more money together, which we can spend eating out, doing outside activities like hiking and scuba diving. Would we do this in the UK? Definitely not. Not only do I not live anywhere near the places that we can do this, but it's cold and dull. British people don't do anything but watch football and drink at the pub/clubs and it's annoying me.

Teaching English should also give a bit more free time (especially when there are going to be suitable locations nearby - less travel) to enjoy going to the gym or starting back at a Judo club. Also I have a tendency to lift heavy weights then ignore my diet (which is my Achilles heel) and I tend to eat less in hot countries, especially when there's a beach and I'll feel too fat to be on it. So being somewhere else will encourage me to exercise more.

I just feel different in other countries. I'm more active and I get things done. I interact with way more people too. Also I could finally learn a language such as Mandarin whilst being somewhat immersed in it, which would not realistically happen in the UK.

I think I can come away from Taiwan in 2 years and be a more developed person. Eventually I'll find something that I want to be my main career. Perhaps I could even take one of those new Asian ideas and open it in the west to make more money.
What would I do if I stayed in the UK? My degree is IT and most of it bores me. I'm a fairly talented person but have no definite idea of what I want in life, I just know that I don't want to use programming languages. I don't feel like making 18-24k over here for something I won't really enjoy, whilst remaining in the culture I've learned to despise. I'm not expecting Taiwan to be all good without problems. I'm sure I'll hate it at times, but right now it's the best decision. I'm hoping in Taiwan I'll make connections, learn new things and come up with something where I can make a fair amount of money.
Or I might not; who knows. At the very least I'll have more money (relatively), more fun and possibly strong knowledge of Mandarin.

[SolidChamp]

In case you have not noticed, it is mostly white males that come to Taiwan to teach English.
My guess is that they have "yellow fever".

This is what my wife and I have noticed in the past five and a half years that we've been living and traveling in Asia (with Korea being our place of residence). Taiwan seems to be no different.

Asia...the white guys come for the jobs, but they stay for the pussy.

[ChewDawg]

Not only that, places like Japan are stricter regarding foreign residents and difficult to rent houses etc.

Not entirely true at all. I've never worked in Japan (visited there for 6 months though in the last 10 years), but a close Japanese school chum of mine, who I often stay with when I visit, runs a bunch of family companies and has awesome prefectural government/media/film/tourism connections. This dude also has loads of foreigner friends from every background imaginable (from the lowly English teacher to the jet-setters ). At his bi-annual parties in Tokyo (at his dad's HQ), I've chatted with him, Japanese government/business people, and every shade of foreigner about gov policy towards foreigners/visa stuff etc. (usually after consuming huge amounts of sake).

In Japan, if you lose your job as a foreigner, your residency is not tied directly to your job. In other words, unlike Taiwan, you wouldn't be asked to leave in a week if you lost your job or your spouse died and you had no kids. You would be eligible to stay for the remainder of the period on your work permit and work at the other places . Similarly, in terms of family visa, if you get divorced/wife died, from my understanding, it has no bearing on your visa. You are entitled to stay basically forever. These government policies are way, way better than Taiwan's.

Where foreigners do face discrimination is in regards, as you mention, to housing (where lots of deposit is required/foreigners sometimes not welcome/given priority) and in some private business areas (e.g., Gaijin discrimination/being denied entrance at hot springs). I would argue though that Japanese hostility to foreigners in these areas is often because they (foreigners) act like monkeys and don't respect the rules and decorum of the place. Tokyo's Governor, Shintaro Ishihara has said as much. Lastly, I would mention that Japanese rules toward their own citizenry are equally as harsh. IF you are Japanese and have tattoos of any kind, try to enter a hot spring facility in Toyko. Try living in an upper-class area and being accepted by your neighbours if you have a Burakumin caste background.

[Super Hans]

I agree. All I never notice about the UK now is the dull weather and the horrible architecture (typical council estates) and chavs.

If you get to live in Taipei, the weather will make you wish you'd stayed in the UK, seriously. And while they don't generally annoy foreigners, the Taiwanese equivalent of the Chav is the TaiKe and believe me, they get up to no good. And if you want to complain about architecture, the buildings in Taipei make the average council estate in England look like the Taj Mahal.

I want to avoid the pessimistic attitudes and the chav culture.

I wouldn't get involved with too many of the expats living here, then, if I were you.

I went travelling on my own to Thailand, Cambodia & Vietnam and I loved it. I enjoyed being in Asia. Many people hate Bangkok but I loved how large and busy it was. They had like 6 or 7 shopping centers (malls) and some of them contained aquariums and large food halls etc. It was just so much more advanced in a way and it put the UK to shame. I enjoyed the heat and I liked how fast-paced it was and I loved taking the BTR (Skytrain) everywhere. I also loved that I could go down south, rent a motorbike and explore a bit, for so cheap.

Again, these places are only really great if you are either a: A foreigner, or b: a rich local. For foreigners, these places are paradise on earth, but you have to remember as a local, where you earn an average wage, things are not so fantastic. Bankok relies heavily on tourism to get by, hence the shopping centres.

... which we can spend eating out, doing outside activities like hiking and scuba diving. Would we do this in the UK? Definitely not. Not only do I not live anywhere near the places that we can do this, but it's cold and dull. British people don't do anything but watch football and drink at the pub/clubs and it's annoying me.

I used to hike, whatever the weather. I used to scuba dive even though I live nowhere near the sea. I used to go sailing, even though I live nowhere near the sea. I used to go rock climbing, exploring, swimming, kayaking and fly aeroplanes - I can't even list the things I used to do in the UK because there were so many.
In contrast in Taiwan, I find it hard to go free kayaking because the police and the coastguard often try to get me stop. If I swim in the sea, often the coastguard try to get me to stop. Hiking is great but many of the places that are good for hiking require a permit for entry, which is sometimes prohibitive and always a little annoying (although I do see sense in this). I can't go sailing because it is not allowed in Taiwan. I can't fly aeroplanes because it is not allowed in Taiwan. Rock climbing is possible, but it's not the same as in the UK. Aside from hiking, the only activity that I can do which is splendid in every way is scuba diving. I do activities which i couldn't do in the UK which go some way to substituting the things I can't do here.
I don't drink a lot at all and I hate football. My friends in the UK were largely the same. i guess you were associating with the wrong people.

I just feel different in other countries. I'm more active and I get things done. I interact with way more people too. Also I could finally learn a language such as Mandarin whilst being somewhat immersed in it, which would not realistically happen in the UK.

Everybody feels different in other countries, and nice and new and refreshed. That's why people travel.

I think I can come away from Taiwan in 2 years and be a more developed person. Eventually I'll find something that I want to be my main career. Perhaps I could even take one of those new Asian ideas and open it in the west to make more money.

If you have the right approach, then hopefully this will happen.

What would I do if I stayed in the UK? My degree is IT and most of it bores me.

You shouldn't have read a degree in IT then.

I'm a fairly talented person but have no definite idea of what I want in life, I just know that I don't want to use programming languages. I don't feel like making 18-24k over here for something I won't really enjoy, whilst remaining in the culture I've learned to despise.

You see, I was almost the same as you in regards to how I viewed the UK. But I learned that I was wrong in many ways and being in Asia showed me that. Perhaps being thankful that you have the option to travel freely, have received a good enough education that now allows you to travel, live and work in other countries and make your own decisions is the way to go.
I would hate to be an average Taiwanese person in Taiwan. I would hate to be a student and have to be forced through the education system to end up working 12 hours a day in a professional career that paid me less than 600 pounds a month, in a capital city where living and transportation costs take up the vast proportion of your salary.
Being a foreigner is great here if you know how to play it. However, reading your above post, I reckon Taiwan is going to get the better of you pretty quickly. You're going to leave a bitter person, complaining about the weather, the people, the traffic , the pollution and the lack of things to do, and you're going to go back despising Taiwan, judging by your contempt for the UK.

I hope that's not the case though. Good luck

[Ducked]

[In contrast in Taiwan, I find it hard to go free kayaking because the police and the coastguard often try to get me stop. If I swim in the sea, often the coastguard try to get me to stop. Hiking is great but many of the places that are good for hiking require a permit for entry, which is sometimes prohibitive and always a little annoying (although I do see sense in this). I can't go sailing because it is not allowed in Taiwan. I can't fly aeroplanes because it is not allowed in Taiwan. Rock climbing is possible, but it's not the same as in the UK. Aside from hiking, the only activity that I can do which is splendid in every way is scuba diving. I do activities which i couldn't do in the UK which go some way to substituting the things I can't do here.
I don't drink a lot at all and I hate football. My friends in the UK were largely the same. i guess you were associating with the wrong people.

Lots of valid points above, SH, but this particular bit is starting to piss me off a lot, because my knees are now too fucked for hiking.

I've done a (very little) sea kayaking with no coastguard hassle, but I might just have been lucky. I thought it was allowed though.

What do they say to you?

I've been meaning to find the time to do something about sailing and made some enquiries last week.

It appears that "not allowed" is now an over-simplification for sailing . There are sailing clubs, BUT you need to have some (no doubt stupid) Taiwanese license to do it, and my foreign RYA qalifications (which I probably can't now document anyway) aren't recognised.

More eccentrically, I have some experimental boat building ideas using Taiwan-specific found materials which I'd like to try out sometime. (I'd hoped to do it this summer but I have this sodding summer school to do).

Apparently any boat above 5 metres is subject to commercial inspection and licensing, which will be expensive and probably impossible for a homebuilt (certainly impossible for one of my "experimentals") to meet.

I assume the sailing yachts one sees (there are a few at Sihnda Gang near Tainan, and a few in Kaoshiung (Gaoxiong) harbour) were purchased overseas and are foreign registered, exempting them.

Below 5m, (which is pretty small for a sailboat but OK for a prototype) I dunno, but I'd be surprised if "anything goes", at least as far as the Coastguard is concerned.

[Arteta]

I agree. All I never notice about the UK now is the dull weather and the horrible architecture (typical council estates) and chavs.

If you get to live in Taipei, the weather will make you wish you'd stayed in the UK, seriously. And while they don't generally annoy foreigners, the Taiwanese equivalent of the Chav is the TaiKe and believe me, they get up to no good. And if you want to complain about architecture, the buildings in Taipei make the average council estate in England look like the Taj Mahal.

I want to avoid the pessimistic attitudes and the chav culture.

I wouldn't get involved with too many of the expats living here, then, if I were you.

I went travelling on my own to Thailand, Cambodia & Vietnam and I loved it. I enjoyed being in Asia. Many people hate Bangkok but I loved how large and busy it was. They had like 6 or 7 shopping centers (malls) and some of them contained aquariums and large food halls etc. It was just so much more advanced in a way and it put the UK to shame. I enjoyed the heat and I liked how fast-paced it was and I loved taking the BTR (Skytrain) everywhere. I also loved that I could go down south, rent a motorbike and explore a bit, for so cheap.

Again, these places are only really great if you are either a: A foreigner, or b: a rich local. For foreigners, these places are paradise on earth, but you have to remember as a local, where you earn an average wage, things are not so fantastic. Bankok relies heavily on tourism to get by, hence the shopping centres.

... which we can spend eating out, doing outside activities like hiking and scuba diving. Would we do this in the UK? Definitely not. Not only do I not live anywhere near the places that we can do this, but it's cold and dull. British people don't do anything but watch football and drink at the pub/clubs and it's annoying me.

I used to hike, whatever the weather. I used to scuba dive even though I live nowhere near the sea. I used to go sailing, even though I live nowhere near the sea. I used to go rock climbing, exploring, swimming, kayaking and fly aeroplanes - I can't even list the things I used to do in the UK because there were so many.
In contrast in Taiwan, I find it hard to go free kayaking because the police and the coastguard often try to get me stop. If I swim in the sea, often the coastguard try to get me to stop. Hiking is great but many of the places that are good for hiking require a permit for entry, which is sometimes prohibitive and always a little annoying (although I do see sense in this). I can't go sailing because it is not allowed in Taiwan. I can't fly aeroplanes because it is not allowed in Taiwan. Rock climbing is possible, but it's not the same as in the UK. Aside from hiking, the only activity that I can do which is splendid in every way is scuba diving. I do activities which i couldn't do in the UK which go some way to substituting the things I can't do here.
I don't drink a lot at all and I hate football. My friends in the UK were largely the same. i guess you were associating with the wrong people.

I just feel different in other countries. I'm more active and I get things done. I interact with way more people too. Also I could finally learn a language such as Mandarin whilst being somewhat immersed in it, which would not realistically happen in the UK.

Everybody feels different in other countries, and nice and new and refreshed. That's why people travel.

I think I can come away from Taiwan in 2 years and be a more developed person. Eventually I'll find something that I want to be my main career. Perhaps I could even take one of those new Asian ideas and open it in the west to make more money.

If you have the right approach, then hopefully this will happen.

What would I do if I stayed in the UK? My degree is IT and most of it bores me.

You shouldn't have read a degree in IT then.

I'm a fairly talented person but have no definite idea of what I want in life, I just know that I don't want to use programming languages. I don't feel like making 18-24k over here for something I won't really enjoy, whilst remaining in the culture I've learned to despise.

You see, I was almost the same as you in regards to how I viewed the UK. But I learned that I was wrong in many ways and being in Asia showed me that. Perhaps being thankful that you have the option to travel freely, have received a good enough education that now allows you to travel, live and work in other countries and make your own decisions is the way to go.
I would hate to be an average Taiwanese person in Taiwan. I would hate to be a student and have to be forced through the education system to end up working 12 hours a day in a professional career that paid me less than 600 pounds a month, in a capital city where living and transportation costs take up the vast proportion of your salary.
Being a foreigner is great here if you know how to play it. However, reading your above post, I reckon Taiwan is going to get the better of you pretty quickly. You're going to leave a bitter person, complaining about the weather, the people, the traffic , the pollution and the lack of things to do, and you're going to go back despising Taiwan, judging by your contempt for the UK.

I hope that's not the case though. Good luck

Thankyou for your detailed reply.

I fear that it's possible you're right about eventually learning to hate things about Taiwan, but I do have a very specific hate towards the UK. It seems as though from hours of reading that everybody always recommends staying in the UK. You're here on Forumosa telling me I'll hate Taiwan, whereas elsewhere people laugh at the idea of me finding happiness in Australia or the USA or Japan (I'm just throwing out examples). It sort of leaves me feeling as though everybody would discourage living abroad and that staying in the UK is the best course of action.

I personally would not enjoy going hiking in the UK, or doing rock climbing, sailing, scuba diving or cycling. It's because I have a disdain for the UK countryside and the general climate. My most prevalent emotion is that it depresses me. Take a programme like Coronation Street and look at the houses they live in, the topics of conversation they have, the sound of their voices, all of it just converges to this thing that I hate.
It's not that I don't like poor people or those that aren't intelligent, it's that I specifically don't like the UK versions. I know there's poverty in foreign countries, but it's just different. I've never lived abroad so I can't fully comment, but I think I will prefer many countries over my own.

Where do you think is a fantastic place to live? The weather plays a huge part in my happiness.

I've been dreaming of living elsewhere for as long as I can remember, but everybody likes tell me why I won't find what I'm looking for in X country. Sometimes it really demoralises me and makes me feel like giving up.

I do have a concern that due to my 'always dreaming ahead' attitude that I'm destined for unhappiness, but I don't think so. I get a lot of pleasure from being abroad and if I could never leave the UK then I'd probably not look forward to life in general.
I should probably conclude with saying that the UK may logically be the best place to live, but I hate it too much stay here, unless it was central London.

I'll show you two images that could make me feel truly depressed (and I spent a few seconds picking each one out, so I didn't have to look hard). This is typical UK to me and it's unavoidable, even if you don't live in a house like this. I'll trade this for a poorer existence in a more beautiful part of the world.


Are there NO places in Taiwan you'd recommend?

[headhonchoII]

Travel is great , do it. Come to Taiwan when young and it's a great place. You sound like you would enjoy the Aussie lifestyle and climate too. Check it out, look at getting a WHV for Australia.

The climate is a big downer for me too in the UK and Ireland. Nearby in Southern France would be leagues ahead of both in terms of climate and food.

There is something to living overseas that helps to lift one from the mundane, unfortunately you have to keep moving to escape it as mundanity will catch you eventually. For instance instead of Coronation street Taiwan has Korean soup operas, instead of drugged up junkies they have blue slipper wearing beetlenut chewing blue slipper wearing whisby swilling Taikes.

[Omniloquacious]

It seems as though from hours of reading that everybody always recommends staying in the UK. You're here on Forumosa telling me I'll hate Taiwan ...

Not me. Not at all. On the contrary, I say that if there's anything you feel to be drawing you to Taiwan, or you've any reason for considering heading this way, then go for it!

From what you've written, it's evident that you need to get yourself outself of the UK to experience living in a different environment and among different people for at least a year or so. You're young and you've got nothing to lose but everything to gain by giving it a try. It doesn't really matter where you head for, as long as you've got a reasonable chance of being allowed to stay and earn a living when you get there. Taiwan definitely offers that, and a whole lot more. There are plenty of other choices, but Taiwan is as good as any. It might suit you, or it might not, but you'll never know unless and until you've come here and experienced it for yourself. If it doesn't tick the right boxes for you, then no problem, just move on to somewhere else.

Looking at it honestly, realistically and objectively, I reckon you've got at least as good a chance of finding Taiwan to your liking, and settling into a happy life here, as you'd have anywhere else in the world. And I say that despite agreeing with a lot of what Hans wrote about restrictions and frustrations of living here.

Why do I think so? Well this, as I wrote in the “(Theory) Why Some Foreigners Never Leave Taiwan” thread a few days ago, should tell you plenty about it:

For all the foreigners who never leave Taiwan was Taiwan your first place you went to in the region?

One of the last, actually.

And I’m pretty sure I could have settled happily in many or even any of the others. Or pretty much anywhere else in the world, to be honest. If I’d happened to land in Peru or Morocco or Fiji or wherever, and found enough to my liking there, I could have stayed, put down roots, and achieved sufficient contentment to make me never want to leave.

Taiwan just happens to be where I finally chose to put down my anchor.

Why Taiwan?

Because it met enough of my core requirements for leading a pleasurable, fulfilling and comfortable life. Living here gave me happiness, excitement, mental stimulation, and a whole raft of other good things fundamental to my well-being, so why move on? I couldn’t even find any good cause for thinking about doing so. There were annoyances, discomforts and frustrations, as there were in my home country and there would have been wherever I lived, but the positives far outweighed the negatives, and that was good enough for me.

Here are the basic things I had that were important to me:

1. I was able to spend a minimal amount of time working, but still earn enough to live on comfortably. At the same time, it was easy to find work, easy enough to arrange my work schedule around my other pursuits, and I usually gained plenty of enjoyment from my work.

2. I was surrounded by lovely, slender, smiling young women, many of whom were glad to become my friends, or at least open to doing so if I approached them in an appropriate way. I could spend as much time as I might wish for with sweet-natured lasses who I really enjoyed being with and who put a huge amount of sparkle in my life. And there were always excellent prospects of finding the special one who would be the best life companion I could ever hope to find.

3. I was able to indulge in my passion for learning Chinese to my heart’s content. If I’d ended up in Thailand, I’m sure I’d have equally enjoyed learning Thai. If I’d ended up in Italy, I’d probably have equally enjoyed learning Italian. But I was in Taiwan, I had a particular passion for learning Chinese (it was my main reason for targeting Taiwan in the first place), and I had the best possible amount of time and opportunity to do so here.

4. I was able to get out into nature every day, and go wild swimming in beautiful, pollution-free mountain rivers and streams. That was very important to me. I was an active, outdoorsy country boy, and regular contact with nature was essential for every aspect of my physical, mental and emotional well-being.

5. I found some of the most beautiful, magical places I’ve ever been to – secluded waterfall pools, surrounded by stunningly beautiful forest-clad mountain slopes, inhabited by a rich array of fauna – and some of the best ones were just a short ride and hike away from my front door.

6. I found endless source of interest in this society, its history, cultures and customs, its politics and economy, the way it was developing, and a myriad other of its facets. I arrived in the last days of martial law, and was witness to an extraordinary process of social liberalization and democratization. What could have been more interesting than that?

7. I was treated pretty well by most of the people I came into contact with. I experienced very little display of open hostility or antipathy, but lashings of friendliness and interest. I felt largely welcomed, liked and respected.

8. Despite this being a society in which rigid rules of conduct held thrall, I was allowed to feel free from expectation of being bound by those rules. My status as an outsider accorded me freedom to live my life pretty much as I wanted to live it, provided I didn’t flout the law or do anything outrageous. People for the most part left me alone when I wanted to be left alone, didn’t poke their nose into my business, and didn’t insist on telling me what I should and shouldn’t be doing. This gave me a sense of liberation, very much to my liking, which I was able to take good advantage of without abusing it.

9. I still had the travel bug, and Taiwan’s location made it an ideal place from which to make frequent jaunts to other countries in the region that I’d not previously visited or that I particularly liked visiting.

10. The tremendous convenience of life here. A half hour’s journey in one direction took me into the wilderness, and the same in the other direction took me into the heart of the city, where I could find most of what I needed to buy in stores that would be open pretty much whenever I needed to shop.

11. There are probably a good few other things that don’t spring to mind right away, but I think I’ve already listed enough.

Before I came to Taiwan, I’d visited many countries in most parts of the world, including most of East Asia. I’d dallied in some for several months, and had found much to my liking there. In my student days, I spent quite a lot of time in Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore, and would happily have settled in any of them. En route to Taiwan (a journey I made entirely by land and sea from England), I stopped for a few months in Japan, and would have been very glad to extend my stay there indefinitely. But I had my sights set on coming to Taiwan to study Chinese, so I pushed myself to move on.

I presume that many other foreigners who have lived a long time in Taiwan, and have no intention to leave, arrived here by a similar and largely chance convergence of circumstances, and stayed here for similar reasons. I doubt if much can be read into whether or not it’s the first place in which they spent time in this region or outside their home country.

If a person is sufficiently resourceful, has enough gumption, and is not beset by too much hard luck, they ought to be able to carve out a pretty good life for themselves in almost any part of the world. And for Westerners in Taiwan, the conditions for being able to do so are far more on the favourable side than otherwise.

All the best to you, whatever you decide. I hope that reading and communicating here will help you make a decision that you'll never have cause to regret.

[Ducked]

I personally would not enjoy going hiking in the UK, or doing rock climbing, sailing, scuba diving or cycling. It's because I have a disdain for the UK countryside and the general climate. My most prevalent emotion is that it depresses me. Take a programme like Coronation Street and look at the houses they live in, the topics of conversation they have, the sound of their voices, all of it just converges to this thing that I hate.
It's not that I don't like poor people or those that aren't intelligent, it's that I specifically don't like the UK versions. I know ?

hmm...scuba diving - UK countryside - Coronation Street

Right. connections

So this is a somehow pastoral but sub-aquatic Lost-Atlantis stylee Coronation Street that STILL, despite having sunk beneath the waves, manages to be subject to the vagaries of the general climate (cue Brighouse and Rastrict Town Band playing under water).

I can see why that would piss you off.