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Teaching ESL as a non-native speaker... Advice?

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Re: Teaching ESL as a non-native speaker... Advice?

Postby Ermintrude » 13 Jan 2014, 10:00

OK Icon, you've convinced me that Taiwan can't have nice things like other countries can. :lol:

I've worked in a well-ranked university in the UK with a German guy, a Polish woman, and a Taiwanese woman. Same qualifications as me. Not as good English as me, but far far better than any of their students. The Polish woman has more of a local accent than me, because my grandparents slapped the northern out of me, as much as possible. Respected by staff, students and admin. It's not about being 'PC' or 'open', it's about starting from with a standpoint of mutual respect. Of course, that's easier when students are not 'customers'.

Taiwan loses out. Taiwanese people pay a fortune for 100s of hours of substandard crappy tuition because of their own childish prejudices and misbeliefs about language-learning. They are being manipulated by people whose business interest is to keep them paying for crappy classes. Too much 'Oh, well, that's the way it is ...'
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Re: Teaching ESL as a non-native speaker... Advice?

Postby Icon » 13 Jan 2014, 12:12

Erm, I see your point. Problem is neither of us make the rules. The rules, as it has been discussed before ad nauseaum, are there for a reason: you have to draw the line somewhere.

There is no way to evaluate people of all origins solely on their performance by the thousands. Minimum paperwork requirements are set per rules of the easiest, basic stuff, and even so it is stuff we both know people fake all the time, or even if they have those minimums, they do not perform well. But an open cattle call will not help, either.

Think of this as university exams, GMATs and SATs and all that jazz. Truly not the best method, but at least a verification of sorts.

And all this discussion is moot, based on reality. As of today, a non Native speaker needs practically an Act of God to teach English in Taiwan. To tell the OP otherwise is misleading. Sure, there are backroads and alleys and things that can be done but those are not SOP and WILL put the OP in a disadvantageous position. You can criticize and laugh ant Taiwan all you want but that won't change the fact that sure, OP can find illegal job anytime he steps off the boat, sure he can find semi legal job, not so sure he might be able to squeeze some kind of legalish English teaching job, but surely his best bet is to find a job he legally qualifies for and is more related to his career, which is not English teaching.
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Re: Teaching ESL as a non-native speaker... Advice?

Postby Ermintrude » 13 Jan 2014, 12:23

Of course, Icon, but one of the things that holds Taiwan back is the belief that it is poor and cannot afford to adopt employment practices of developed countries. It's not. It's just that the 1% (or 5%, whatever) is creaming the profit off of the top and giving nothing back. These people don't educate their kids in Taiwan, so it's irrelevant to them that the middle classes get shit and pay through the nose for it.
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Re: Teaching ESL as a non-native speaker... Advice?

Postby headhonchoII » 13 Jan 2014, 13:21

I've noticed there are lots of non native English speakers in Taichung. Their shared characteristic, they look Western or white (I'm sure there are also others that don't look like that, but I haven't bumped into them yet). They get paid just a little bit less by all accounts but it works out for all concerned. The bosses get a slightly cheaper teacher, maybe a bit easier to control, and the parents get the face they want. To be fair these non native English speakers that I have met have good English and have been teaching a long time here, most are married to locals so are legally allowed work, and I wouldn't have a problem with them teaching my kids in English.

The fact is that many parents here cannot afford to have a qualified foreign teacher teach English (or teach in English) to their kids. They just don't have the economic wherewithal to compete with ME nations for example.

Now if they faced reality they'd realise that it would be much better to use Filipino teachers or to send their kids to the Phillipines (try and find a safe place there of course) to learn English every Summer for a month or so, mix with students from other countries, and learn a bit about the world at the same time. And maybe get a bit of respect for SE Asians while they were at it and realise that most people lump Taiwan into South East Asia aswell!

There's loads of fake shit like that in Taiwan because people can't afford the real thing, but everybody pretends that they can. The real thing is usually twice the price of the fake stuff.
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Re: Teaching ESL as a non-native speaker... Advice?

Postby headhonchoII » 13 Jan 2014, 13:25

Ermintrude wrote:Of course, Icon, but one of the things that holds Taiwan back is the belief that it is poor and cannot afford to adopt employment practices of developed countries. It's not. It's just that the 1% (or 5%, whatever) is creaming the profit off of the top and giving nothing back. These people don't educate their kids in Taiwan, so it's irrelevant to them that the middle classes get shit and pay through the nose for it.


Ermintrude nails it.

Taiwan is a place to make money for the elite not a place to be providing things that will cost more in taxes for them, giving workers raises, dirty scooters are okay because they keep workers demands for wage increases down.

Their kids often go to school overseas, the family even lives overseas in many cases, double passports, you name it.
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Re: Teaching ESL as a non-native speaker... Advice?

Postby Abacus » 13 Jan 2014, 13:26

E04teacherlin wrote:I meant the government doesn't make a big deal out of being a native speaker, but as far as I understand it, they are allowed to work anywhere for 14 hours a week. Laughable, but at least a step in the right direction. In Australia it is 20 hours.


So it's an open work permit that they apply for?

I'm asking because inspectors come around and this teacher needs to have some sort of paperwork to be there teaching. The only ones that I knew that were allowed to teach were normal work permit holders and APRC/JFRV open work permit holders. I have also heard of a working holiday for gap year students but I don't know much about it. Perhaps this is similar.

The reason that I'm asking is that I have a friend taking classes and he might do some long term part time subbing. I don't think he's aware of this and I'm not but it would of course be better for him.
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Re: Teaching ESL as a non-native speaker... Advice?

Postby E04teacherlin » 13 Jan 2014, 13:42

Abacus wrote:
E04teacherlin wrote:I meant the government doesn't make a big deal out of being a native speaker, but as far as I understand it, they are allowed to work anywhere for 14 hours a week. Laughable, but at least a step in the right direction. In Australia it is 20 hours.


So it's an open work permit that they apply for?

I'm asking because inspectors come around and this teacher needs to have some sort of paperwork to be there teaching. The only ones that I knew that were allowed to teach were normal work permit holders and APRC/JFRV open work permit holders. I have also heard of a working holiday for gap year students but I don't know much about it. Perhaps this is similar.

The reason that I'm asking is that I have a friend taking classes and he might do some long term part time subbing. I don't think he's aware of this and I'm not but it would of course be better for him.

http://english.moe.gov.tw/ct.asp?xItem= ... =3008&mp=1
This is the only information I am aware of. I know of students who work here that teach English but wrote "promoter of foreign and international culture" on their application. Whatever that means.
I can't really answer your question in detail.
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Re: Teaching ESL as a non-native speaker... Advice?

Postby ironlady » 13 Jan 2014, 19:45

Icon wrote:And all this discussion is moot, based on reality. As of today, a non Native speaker person who doesn't have a passport from an "English-speaking country" on the list needs practically an Act of God to teach English in Taiwan.


No one cares if you can speak English well. They just care that you have the right passport, or whom you're married to.

Be glad that's how the line was drawn or most likely no native speaker could get a job. I can see the lines of people waiting patiently to have the oral interview with the representatives in the office of the Vice Minister of Engrish and coming out in tears. "That not correct Engrish! No job for you. You leave Taiwan, ten days!"
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Re: Teaching ESL as a non-native speaker... Advice?

Postby E04teacherlin » 13 Jan 2014, 21:26

ironlady wrote:
Icon wrote:And all this discussion is moot, based on reality. As of today, a non Native speaker person who doesn't have a passport from an "English-speaking country" on the list needs practically an Act of God to teach English in Taiwan.


No one cares if you can speak English well. They just care that you have the right passport, or whom you're married to.

Be glad that's how the line was drawn or most likely no native speaker could get a job. I can see the lines of people waiting patiently to have the oral interview with the representatives in the office of the Vice Minister of Engrish and coming out in tears. "That not correct Engrish! No job for you. You leave Taiwan, ten days!"

Or it would be something like "Yes it is nice that you have a PhD in language acquisition and a Cambridge Delta, dan shi wo men Tai wan Ren ..."
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Re: Teaching ESL as a non-native speaker... Advice?

Postby Icon » 13 Jan 2014, 23:05

ironlady wrote:
Icon wrote:And all this discussion is moot, based on reality. As of today, a non Native speaker person who doesn't have a passport from an "English-speaking country" on the list needs practically an Act of God to teach English in Taiwan.


No one cares if you can speak English well. They just care that you have the right passport, or whom you're married to.

Be glad that's how the line was drawn or most likely no native speaker could get a job. I can see the lines of people waiting patiently to have the oral interview with the representatives in the office of the Vice Minister of Engrish and coming out in tears. "That not correct Engrish! No job for you. You leave Taiwan, ten days!"


I stand corrected with the most accurate representation. :notworthy: :lol: Awesome!
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