Harvesting Organs in China: the Preparation for Sujiatun

[sandman]

But FLG doesnt say that you have to believe in them or face the consequences, the CCP does.

Not quite. The CCP says "don't base one of the major facets of your existence on a stated objective of overthrowing the rule of the Communist Party of China. Or if you do, know that we'll try to stop you."
And actually, FLG is VERY big indeed on what will happen to those who don't believe in their lying megalomaniac of a leader. Your kid, for example, is one of those damned to perdition for being a half-caste -- an ugly description, to be sure, but that's how Lizhi refers to him.

[Gao Bohan]

whether or not you feel that FLG is an anti-communist organization isn't really the issue. The real issue is that people should be granted basic human rights, no matter what their spiritual beliefs are. Evidently, your view of what is "evil" is far different from what the vast majority of people would consider it to be.

No it isn't. The FLG has all the characteristics of a cult, including worshipping their leader like a god, harassing members who attempt to leave, misrepresenting their beliefs, and outright lying. Just because they're not genocidal maniacs doesn't mean they're not evil.

When I think of "evil" I picture more of a opressive regime that restricts all kinds of freedom and imprisions and tortures those who fail to fall in line.

That one group is evil does not mean the other group is not.

Why would you take the CCP as having more credibility? They are rated as having one of the worst media freedom scores in the world. What are the lies about organ harvesting you refer to? and the evidence against their persecution? I have seen plenty of "hard" evidence of their persecution in the form of photographs and first hand accounts.

This isn't about the CCP's credibility. It's about the FLG's lack of credibility. Their "evidence" amounts to a handful of grotesque photos of tortured Chinese prisoners and spotty phone transcripts (without the original recordings). I'll need more than that to believe there is a massive organ harvesting operation going on.

But FLG doesnt say that you have to believe in them or face the consequences, the CCP does.

And what consequences might that be? Is their leader going to use his magical powers and destroy the CCP?

[Temple]

Well the problem is here that we are getting information from different sources. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when the basis of it comes from a biased source, its just being ignorant. Obviously I don't agree with some of the things you have to say about FLG. I believe that the CCP lies and misrepresents FLG. You believe that FLG practitioners are hippocritical since they defy their basic principles truthfullness, compassion, and forebearance. I'm willing to look for an unbaised source of information to validate my points and you should be willing to do the same to back up yours. How about we start with the wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong unless you can suggest another source which is less biased. Or we can look at what reputable NGOs say about FLG, like freedom house or amnesty international. There is alot of misinformation about FLG on all sides, and I'd like to get to the source of the matter without turning this thread into a pointless bickering match. The position I am taking is that FLG is not "evil" in the sense that justifies the forfiture of their human rights at the hands of the CCP. Oppression exists all around the world, and many organizations are targeted by corrupt powers using false ideology to demonize them. No country is exempt from these crimes against humanity. If you really believe in liberty, human rights, and freedom, then its time to stop buying into the party lines and look for the truth yourself.

[urodacus]

maybe we can just say that they're evil like Scientologists and Moonies. equally misguided, but as long as they don't hurt people in the pursuit of their beliefs, then it's fine. but it seems from various reports that some people are being hurt by these cults...

[Temple]

As I've mentioned in my previous post, I'd like to hear some real evidence to back up claims smearing the reputation of FLG. We all know there is alot of misinformation being thrown around, and alot of negative rumors have intentionally been started by the CCP in order to discredit FLG. Things like "the leader is crazy" and "he's out to damn everyone who isn't part of FLG or of pure blood" are matters of opinion and quotes taken out of context. In order to resolve this issue and clear it up, we need to investigate claims and post reasoned explainations for why FLG is evil. I'd also like to hear hard evidence for the reasons listed as FLG being a cult. FLG does not coerce members into joining or leaving, and in fact there is no actual organization or listing of "member" status. People who wish to become practitioners undergo no formal ceremony or any type of dedication ritual. It is all up to one's own heart and belief if they wish to practice and participate in FLG activities. There is a section in the book containing the core teachings of FLG dedicated to this issue and also brings up the point of how absolutely no money is allowed to be involved. I only wish to understand how many people seem to hate this practice as if it had done something to personally harm or offend. I believe that FLG contains pure teachings at heart promoting good health, cultivation of the heart and mind, and offers fresh perspectives on the downward direction society is heading towards in these days. These people do not deserve to be treated as criminals, and at least should be offered our passing support for their campaign in human rights relations.

[mprobertson]

Hi guys,

I just noticed this thread by chance and was slightly taken aback by the hostility towards Falun Gong here, whether the spiritual teachings themselves, the founder, Li Hongzhi, or practitioners. I've practiced Falun Gong for about four years, and I'm in Taipei at the moment, studying Chinese. I really can't grasp this kind of hatred toward a group of people for their peaceful beliefs. I don't care if people believe in a horde of flying spaghetti monsters that rule the universe and govern humanity from afar, I would not even bat an eyelid if someone told me about this. For all intents and purposes, to anyone who does not practice Falun Gong, what Li Hongzhi says should be taken in precisely the same way. There's no meaningful way to grasp these teachings in their context if you don't even understand or accept the basic principles or axioms of Falun Gong. Speculate all day long, I guess, but really, I wouldn't bother breaking a sweat over it.

Falun Gong has taught me a lot about myself, other people, and the world around me, and I haven't paid a cent, joined any group, signed my name on anything, or like, engaged in any formal thing at all. There's no formal organisation, just personal connections between individual practitioners. It's like chess or something, anyone can play it, and people who play it can just play each other whenever they want. There's a set of rules, of course. If you don't follow the rules, then you're not playing chess. The rules are truthfulness, compassion, forbearance. Fundamentally it's a set of free teachings, anyone can believe it or not, anyone can practice it or not, and there is nothing bad in it. One user's remark about Falun Gong condemning interracial marriage, or that interracial children cannot go to heaven, distorted what Li Hongzhi said, and at the very least, no practitioner I've met has come to this interpretation. Interracial marriages are very common among practitioners, so are children from those marriages. No one thinks that is unusual. Wouldn't people who actually practice the discipline have a better idea of the ideas behind what Li Hongzhi has said in different contexts, and aren't they the people whose interpretations of the teachings actually matter, since they are living this out? Anyway, of course, you can download the books and read them for yourself and come to think what you want. I would just say that how you understand them is for sure different from how I understand them, and that it is more important what I think than what a random guy who downloads the books thinks. He's not the one practicing it, after all.

On a more important point, I'll put some information about the organ harvesting evidence here. It's untrue that these allegations are groundless, that they are being pushed forward only by Falun Gong practitioners, or that they have been discredited or disproven:

http://organharvestinvestigation.net/ -- the main investigation;
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... j.asp?pg=1 -- unsolved questions with regard to Sujiatun (the old story which led to the main thing)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reports_of ... s_in_China -- wiki article, fairly comprehensive in covering what the different parties have said
http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/CNN- ... 4-502.html -- an editorial about why this hasn't been picked up in the media
http://organharvestinvestigation.net/re ... -08-22.htm -- the nail in the coffin for the CCP and defenders on this organ harvesting issue. This is direct admission from the horse's mouth that the telephone recordings detailed in the Kilgour-Matas report are bona-fide.

I reckon it would take a good couple of hours to read through all this material, but that anyone who actually did so, and who looked at the evidence on its own grounds, would simply be unable to dismiss it. I also think that it's somewhat irresponsible to form opinions about the veracity of the evidence without even looking at it--reading the Kilgour-Matas report is essential, and I feel comfortable in saying that unless someone has read that, they don't know the first thing about this subject.

Final point: I'm here till February, I study at Zheng-Da every day, and I would be happy to meet with anyone who wants to meet a real-live Falun Gong practitioner. I'm a normal person. I studied philosophy and English at the Australian National University, graduated, and decided to come study Chinese here. I'm also curious about the people who have developed this weird kind of hatred of Falun Gong practitioners. Anyway, this is a cool forum, I've checked out some other parts of it before, and this thread impelled me to respond. Got an account now, so I'll try to stick around!

Peace.

[Gao Bohan]

I don't care if people believe in a horde of flying spaghetti monsters that rule the universe and govern humanity from afar, I would not even bat an eyelid if someone told me about this.

If you believe that Li Hongzhi can fly and walk through walls, then I'm not surprised you wouldn't "bat an eye" at that notion.

There's no meaningful way to grasp these teachings in their context if you don't even understand or accept the basic principles or axioms of Falun Gong.

Horseshit. Religious beliefs can be understood without subscribing to them.

One user's remark about Falun Gong condemning interracial marriage, or that interracial children cannot go to heaven, distorted what Li Hongzhi said, and at the very least, no practitioner I've met has come to this interpretation.

It's always enjoyable to watch cultists lie...you guys are just so outrageous about it. No one here distored what Li Hongzhi stated...the questions he was asked about heaven and his answers were quoted entirely. He clearly states that whites and Asians (or "yellows" as he calls them) go to a racially segregated heaven.

Interracial marriages are very common among practitioners, so are children from those marriages. No one thinks that is unusual.

That doesn't make belief in a segregated heaven any less racist.

Wouldn't people who actually practice the discipline have a better idea of the ideas behind what Li Hongzhi has said in different contexts, and aren't they the people whose interpretations of the teachings actually matter, since they are living this out? Anyway, of course, you can download the books and read them for yourself and come to think what you want. I would just say that how you understand them is for sure different from how I understand them, and that it is more important what I think than what a random guy who downloads the books thinks. He's not the one practicing it, after all.

I read the Zhuan Falun and quoted it at length in an earlier post. Again, it's hard to "distort" an unedited passage.

http://organharvestinvestigation.net/ -- the main investigation;
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... j.asp?pg=1 -- unsolved questions with regard to Sujiatun (the old story which led to the main thing)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reports_of ... s_in_China -- wiki article, fairly comprehensive in covering what the different parties have said
http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/CNN- ... 4-502.html -- an editorial about why this hasn't been picked up in the media
http://organharvestinvestigation.net/re ... -08-22.htm -- the nail in the coffin for the CCP and defenders on this organ harvesting issue. This is direct admission from the horse's mouth that the telephone recordings detailed in the Kilgour-Matas report are bona-fide.

OK, checked out the main link...it's the same Matas/Kilgoure report that has been discussed at length in previous threads. They base their findings on the slimmest of evidence. Phone transcripts? Buahahaha. Oh wait, it's bona fide! Nevermind!

That's not enough. Not nearly. If a large scale organ harvesting operation were really occuring, there would be mountains of corroborating evidence. Western journalists and human rights organizations would have picked up the story long ago and would be shouting from the rooftops.

Final point: I'm here till February, I study at Zheng-Da every day, and I would be happy to meet with anyone who wants to meet a real-live Falun Gong practitioner. I'm a normal person. I studied philosophy and English at the Australian National University, graduated, and decided to come study Chinese here. I'm also curious about the people who have developed this weird kind of hatred of Falun Gong practitioners. Anyway, this is a cool forum, I've checked out some other parts of it before, and this thread impelled me to respond. Got an account now, so I'll try to stick around!

Do normal people believe in flying men and animal spirit possession?

[Temple]

OK, checked out the main link...it's the same Matas/Kilgoure report that has been discussed at length in previous threads. They base their findings on the slimmest of evidence. Phone transcripts? Buahahaha. Oh wait, it's bona fide! Nevermind!

That's not enough. Not nearly. If a large scale organ harvesting operation were really occuring, there would be mountains of corroborating evidence. Western journalists and human rights organizations would have picked up the story long ago and would be shouting from the rooftops.

Ok well here is a major human rights organization presenting plenty of evidence for organ harvesting occuring in china.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1994/china1/ ... .htm#_1_10
Are you really so naive to believe that china would allow western journalists or anyone for that matter anywhere close to this story? There is an entire state run media campaign to cover up and subvert the truth about FLG dominating china, which restricts and manipulates all information in the entire country. I don't understand why you are more willing to allow yourself to be manipulated by the propapanda of an evil empire, instead of listen to the pleas of a group of people who are obviously being treated unfairly and stripped of basic human rights.

If you really want to continue the battle about the legitimacy of FLG mabye we should start up another thread, but the focus here is to draw attention to the untold suffering of numerous people, regardless of their spiritual beliefs. Lets say that what you believe is true, and that we portray the leader of FLG in the worst light. Does that mean that its ok for his misguided followers should be subjected to torture and imprisionment? Why is it that the rest of the world has no problem with FLG, and that many practioners there continue to live normal lives without harming themselves or anyone around them? Why is it that all the negative reports about FLG come from china, and china alone and the rest of the world tends to give its support?

[Gao Bohan]

Ok well here is a major human rights organization presenting plenty of evidence for organ harvesting occuring in china.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1994/china1/ ... .htm#_1_10

Thank you for providing a link that does not support the FLG's claims remotely. All that HRW report says is that organ harvesting occurs in China. No one is denying that, including China. They admit to harvesting the organs of death row inmates, though they claim the procedures are voluntary.

At issue is whether the FLG are being targetted on a mass scale, as they claim. The evidence provided is weak and circumstantial.

Are you really so naive to believe that china would allow western journalists or anyone for that matter anywhere close to this story?

Nice. It's comments like that which make you sound like a FLG cultist, and not the distanced observer you are attempting to portray yourself as. The only one who is accepting propaganda at face value here is you and your fellow FLGers. The CCP's official line on the FLG is irrelevant; there's just very little evidence to support your claims.

There is an entire state run media campaign to cover up and subvert the truth about FLG dominating china, which restricts and manipulates all information in the entire country.

Buahahahaha! So first the CCP is persecuting the FLG, and now they're attempting to conceal that the FLG dominate China? OK that confirms it. You're one of them.

I don't understand why you are more willing to allow yourself to be manipulated by the propapanda of an evil empire, instead of listen to the pleas of a group of people who are obviously being treated unfairly and stripped of basic human rights.

Flying that freak flag at full mast now aren't you? It's funny how you keep claiming that we're the dupes of propaganda when you're quoting FLG propaganda word for word at this point.

Does that mean that its ok for his misguided followers should be subjected to torture and imprisionment?

No.

Why is it that the rest of the world has no problem with FLG, and that many practioners there continue to live normal lives without harming themselves or anyone around them? Why is it that all the negative reports about FLG come from china, and china alone and the rest of the world tends to give its support?

The Western world supports religious freedom, and there isn't any question that the FLG is suppressed in China. That doesn't mean the Western world has bought into the FLG's outrageous claims about mass organ harvesting. It hasn't.

[mprobertson]

I think Temple has said it well enough. It doesn't matter what Falun Gong believes. I just wanted to give a little background and clarify things I bit. I meant my remarks in good faith. It would be meaningless to try to lie about the teachings to anyone, they are on the internet. I was just giving my understanding, which I thought would be relevant since I practice Falun Gong, and I'm the one whose interpretation of the teachings actually has any impact on the world. The questions Li Hongzhi has touched on in this regard are all obviously metaphysical in nature, they don't have a bearing on whether practitioners discriminate against people of different races or think of different races as inferior or superior. He's just saying there are cosmic differences--what's the big deal? As I say, there are a lot of multiracial marriages among practitioners, and this isn't even a question. The fundamental teaching of Falun Gong, which applies to this physical world, is to conduct oneself with truthfulness, compassion, forbearance as guiding principles. That never changes. I'm going to copy below a passage that I've seen copied across several internet sites now already, from a practitioner, I presume originally written to someone with similar hatred against Falun Gong as you are showing, Gao Bohan. It seems to be quite fitting for this situation.

I'd also just like to suggest you read the Kilgour-Matas report in its entirety. There is also proof that one of the phone calls was bonafide, and there is no other known source, or even possible, proposed source, for the organs. On top of the other evidence like exclusive blood and urine testing, waiting times of days instead of years, soaring transplant rates after the persecution started, the absolute need for a pool of live 'donors' to pull it off, the fact that there is no death row, no organ donation system in China, and on and on. Manfred Nowak says "The chain of evidence they [Kilgour and Matas] are documenting shows a coherent picture that causes concern." If all you need is the mainstream to pick it up to believe it, that's excellent--just wait. Aside from these matters, there's the basic issue of repressing people for their peaceful beliefs, whatever you may think of them. That's wrong, it's bad, it's evil, it should be condemned unconditionally, and practitioners should be let out of labor camps and jails where they are tortured and beaten to death. If you can't even agree to that, what kind of person would you be?

Here's what I think is an intelligent and useful response to the labels that have been thrown against Falun Gong, and the faulty logic employed to justify cruelty:

"In my view, the way some of you are applying the 'cult' label is yet another obfuscation of the word's meaning. Talking about aliens, mixed-race marriages or homosexuality has no relation to whether Falun Gong is a 'cult' or not. You could shout "Heresy! Heterodoxy! Feudal superstition!" all over the place, just because you disagree with Li Hongzhi's teachings. But that does not make Falun Gong a 'cult' or Li Hongzhi a 'cult leader'. However, I'm aware of how such words are powerful tools in positioning Falun Gong practitioners--or anyone, for that matter--outside the borders of rationality and normalcy. Thus "cult members" is just another way of saying "inferior subjects", whose autonomous will is not on the level of an ordinary citizen. More severe control measures then seem acceptable and justified, and the outsider's "rational" view becomes the standard by which to judge what "they" really are all about. "Now, stay put while the doctor administers his cure!"

But whether something deserves to be called a 'cult' is a matter of its operational structure. Falun Gong is not operating like a cult, which has been verified by all those who have done serious research on the movement. Practitioners know that perfectly well: they know such labels have absolutely nothing to do with their experiences. Those who choose to use this word in labeling Falun Gong are merely drawing a line of demarcation between 'us' and 'them', 'purity' and 'danger', 'center' and 'margin', while paying no attention to the accuracy of such concepts. Because they think Falun Gong is stupid and its practitioners are alienated from what is real, they couldn't care less if people assume, for example, that Falun Gong is an "organization", with a tight grip on the sheepish "cult members", whose money is going up a pyramid structure to the hands of a callous, calculating and charismatic "cult leader".

Falun Gong is completely open for people to come in or leave. You don't have to pay for anything. You either take responsibility for your own cultivation or you don't, or you start working against the persecution or not, but nobody's ever going to order you to do something. You never join any organization; the practice itself is about as informal as when you go play pétanque with your friends in a park. True, Falun Gong can be called dissidence, at least in relation to the dominant scientific paradigm. But we must keep in mind that China's so-called qigong boom was widely perceived as a paradigm shift--a new form of science--and therefore it's totally understandable why so many qigong enthusiasts, including many Falun Gong practitioners, are highly educated, as proven by fieldwork. True qigong's effects are perfectly tangible and real; the discrepancy that exists between the views of materialist science and the phenomenology of qigong is a blatant farce. And judging by its pre-1999 popularity and the number of awards it received in China, Falun Gong is the most renowned qigong practice in history. That is why it was banned; it was too genuine, intertextual and deeply-rooted for the Communist leaders, as it created a meaningful existence outside of the Party framework. Taking into account what took place in China in the 1980s and 90s, the pop culture definition of qigong as just another "breathing exercise" is a form of revisionist history, an ideologically loaded concept that aims at neutralizing and diluting its essence. China's qigong boom came to an abrupt end because of political repression; qigong was never conclusively proven false or irreal, but the leading ideologies of the scientific establishment have swept it under the carpet, along with a myriad of other anomalous phenomena that call into question the legacy of the Western Enlightenment. This is nothing new, but its implications are sometimes forgotten.

In this way, deliberate obfuscation of the 'cult' label is, in itself, a tool of ideological struggle, not infrequently linked to militant secularism, scientism, or, ironically, even religious fundamentalism. It postulates a "closed" reality, a fixed set of metaphysical axioms, and seeks to crush its perceived adversaries by the way of social exclusion, even if it has to prostitute language itself: it doesn't matter if apples become oranges or war becomes peace. Of course, many people slap labels without any profound idea of what they're doing, but in this matter, they are, unwittingly or not, serving as lackeys of those who would rather see "heresy" weeded out to pave the way for a Brave New World. Talk about yet another Hegelian nightmare! It is heartbreaking to see how the 20th Century couldn't teach us very much."

Hope you got something from this.