Difference between 咱們 and 我們?

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Difference between 咱們 and 我們?

Postby Milkybar_Kid » 28 Jun 2012, 21:38

I know that 咱們 isn't used it Taiwan but can someone explain how it differs from 我們?

I have heard that there is a difference but I cannot find a Taiwanese person to explain it to me.

Thanks
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Re: Difference between 咱們 and 我們?

Postby Dragonbones » 28 Jun 2012, 21:56

I was taught that zanmen (we) specifically includes the listener, whereas women (we) is not clear on this.
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Re: Difference between 咱們 and 我們?

Postby Tempo Gain » 28 Jun 2012, 22:28

Dragonbones wrote:I was taught that zanmen (we) specifically includes the listener, whereas women (we) is not clear on this.


That's what I thought. FWIW the distinction is strictly preserved in Taiwanese, with lan including the listener, and gun excluding.
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Re: Difference between 咱們 and 我們?

Postby yuping1624 » 29 Jun 2012, 13:26

Hello, I'm a Taiwanese.
To my thinking, 咱們 and 我們 have the same meaning.
However, most people are used to use 我們 rather than 咱們.
咱們 is usually said by antient people, or it often appeared in antient books,Chinese novels such as "THE DREAM OF THE RED CHAMBER(紅樓夢)" .
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Re: Difference between 咱們 and 我們?

Postby Rotalsnart » 02 Jul 2012, 12:06

This is an interesting example of the potential hazard of relying blindly on "native informants" in interpreting written language. :lol: (no offense to yuping1624). But it also goes to show how some older Mandarin terms have fallen out of use or never really established themselves in Taiwan, even some terms that have close counterparts in Taiwanese as Tempo Gain pointed out.
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Re: Difference between 咱們 and 我們?

Postby fh2000 » 02 Jul 2012, 13:05

Rotalsnart wrote:This is an interesting example of the potential hazard of relying blindly on "native informants" in interpreting written language. :lol: (no offense to yuping1624). But it also goes to show how some older Mandarin terms have fallen out of use or never really established themselves in Taiwan, even some terms that have close counterparts in Taiwanese as Tempo Gain pointed out.


To this native speaker of Chinese growing up in Taiwan, Yuping is correct in how they are used in Taiwan today. Both terms are still used in China though, including my friends from Beijing. The former is more colloquial, and the latter is more formal, among other explanations.
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Re: Difference between 咱們 and 我們?

Postby Rotalsnart » 02 Jul 2012, 13:32

fh2000 wrote:
Rotalsnart wrote:This is an interesting example of the potential hazard of relying blindly on "native informants" in interpreting written language. :lol: (no offense to yuping1624). But it also goes to show how some older Mandarin terms have fallen out of use or never really established themselves in Taiwan, even some terms that have close counterparts in Taiwanese as Tempo Gain pointed out.


To this native speaker of Chinese growing up in Taiwan, Yuping is correct in how they are used in Taiwan today. Both terms are still used in China though, including my friends from Beijing. The former is more colloquial, and the latter is more formal, among other explanations.


Yes, in a sense Yuping is not incorrect. Her answer gives a part of the picture! I think the issue is that the term 咱們 is barely "used" in Taiwan today -- though it can still be read, or very occasionally heard, in various contexts. Those who grow up occasionally hearing or reading a term without adequate context don't have a grasp of its original uses, just as many English speakers cannot explain the uses of terms like "thee," "thou," "thy," "thine," or the recently disappearing distinctions in the uses of the word "shall" in English -- except perhaps to say that they are old-fashioned ways of speaking.
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Re: Difference between 咱們 and 我們?

Postby Kos » 12 Jul 2012, 00:06

Rotalsnart wrote:
fh2000 wrote:
Rotalsnart wrote:This is an interesting example of the potential hazard of relying blindly on "native informants" in interpreting written language. :lol: (no offense to yuping1624). But it also goes to show how some older Mandarin terms have fallen out of use or never really established themselves in Taiwan, even some terms that have close counterparts in Taiwanese as Tempo Gain pointed out.


To this native speaker of Chinese growing up in Taiwan, Yuping is correct in how they are used in Taiwan today. Both terms are still used in China though, including my friends from Beijing. The former is more colloquial, and the latter is more formal, among other explanations.


Yes, in a sense Yuping is not incorrect. Her answer gives a part of the picture! I think the issue is that the term 咱們 is barely "used" in Taiwan today -- though it can still be read, or very occasionally heard, in various contexts. Those who grow up occasionally hearing or reading a term without adequate context don't have a grasp of its original uses, just as many English speakers cannot explain the uses of terms like "thee," "thou," "thy," "thine," or the recently disappearing distinctions in the uses of the word "shall" in English -- except perhaps to say that they are old-fashioned ways of speaking.


In my opinion, it is as Dragonbones said, 咱們 includes the listener, and 我們 depends on the context, it might be include the listener or not.

And I share the use of the same words in Taiwanese, there are 咱們(pronounced like "lan") and 我們(pronounced like "wan") for Taiwanese, and it is commonly used.
The "咱們" includes the listener, but "我們" doesn't include the listener.
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Re: Difference between 咱們 and 我們?

Postby suray » 03 Aug 2012, 11:10

I'm not a Taiwanese, but a native Chinese Mandarin speaker.

In mainland China, 咱们 is usually used in the North, while 我们 is frequently used in the Southern China. In addition, the former is used more in spoken Chinese.

Besides, 咱们 sometimes can be replaced by 咱 without changing the meaning, say, "咱走吧 - Let's go", "咱妈 - our mother", etc. But 我们 can never be used in this way. "我们走吧 - Let's go" is completely different to "我走了 - I'm leaving".
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Re: Difference between 咱們 and 我們?

Postby nicolette027 » 05 Aug 2012, 05:29

In addition to the above comment, I was taught by my Chinese teachers (all from Northern China) that 咱們 is a little more intimate than 我們. Like you wouldn't use 咱們 with a group of people you just met.
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