Learning Taiwanese / Hokkien / Minnan / Min

[sjcma]

Other suggestions (and they are just suggestions, feel free to poke holes):
Kitchen: 灶腳

Brilliant! 灶 is perfect, but is there any good rationale for using 腳 for this kind of role?

It's a variant of 灶頭 used in other dialects, including Mandarin. It refers to the stove.

起痟

I didn't see any meaning of 'crazy' for 痟, though.

DB, in Kangxi, it lists 痟 as "首頭痛也", but it goes on to note that it also means "頭病也". To go from 頭病 to meaning confused or "crazy" isn't too far of a stretch.

[Dragonbones]

I think it would be interesting to know the connections -- even if disputed

That could get dangerous.

Dragonbones and Harbaugh sittin' in a tree....

Foul, foul, I cry!

I’m just asking for ideas of possible connections in this thread, and would suggest printing them where reasonably supported, with proper notation reflecting the degree of consensus, if appropriate. Harbaugh prints them as fact even if he’s pulled them from his own arse.

You should know that I believe hypotheses and disputed notions are to be clearly labeled as such. Harbaugh is in another tree entirely.

You’re just taking the piss, aren’t ya, Cranky?

[Dragonbones]

Kitchen: 灶腳

Brilliant! 灶 is perfect, but is there any good rationale for using 腳 for this kind of role?

It's a variant of 灶頭 used in other dialects, including Mandarin. It refers to the stove.[/quote]

Thanks!

起痟

I didn't see any meaning of 'crazy' for 痟, though.

DB, in Kangxi, it lists 痟 as "首頭痛也", but it goes on to note that it also means "頭病也". To go from 頭病 to meaning confused or "crazy" isn't too far of a stretch.

Ok, I guess it's plausible. Cheers!

Does anyone have any guesses on 本字 for these?
gin1a2, child
hip2 xiong3 to photograph __?像
gao7cha2 g'mornin! (note: good is ho2 and 早 is chai2 acc. to Maryknoll Book One p.18), so I'm wondering what else fits here.

[Tempo Gain]

have you seen this? http://www.taiwan-guide.org/aa/400characters.pdf

It shows 翕 for hip4, 翕相 = to photograph, I think I remember seeing 吸 somewhere.

gin1a2 is often written 囡仔 as there, that's one of the few special minnan characters though, not sure of its derivation. I remember reading this word has Austroasian roots.

cha2 is the "colloquial" pronunciation of 早, chai2 the "literary." cha2 is often used as "early."

[Chris]

What's the character for chiao2, bird? 隹? 梟?

Might it just be 鳥?

After all, the n- in Mandarin and Cantonese (both stemming from northern dialects over 1000 years ago) is the result of replacement from an older t-, as a result of the older pronunciation becoming a taboo word for "penis". It survives in the modern-day Mandarin 屌, as well as in the Wu-dialect pronunciation of 鳥 (tiu, IIRC)...and possibly is the origin of the Cantonese cuss word diu. (Wu and Min stemmed from southern dialects in the First Millennium.)

[Rotalsnart]

What's the character for chiao2, bird? 隹? 梟?

Might it just be 鳥?

After all, the n- in Mandarin and Cantonese (both stemming from northern dialects over 1000 years ago) is the result of replacement from an older t-, as a result of the older pronunciation becoming a taboo word for "penis". It survives in the modern-day Mandarin 屌, as well as in the Wu-dialect pronunciation of 鳥 (tiu, IIRC)...and possibly is the origin of the Cantonese cuss word diu. (Wu and Min stemmed from southern dialects in the First Millennium.)

I don't know "dick" about etymology (sorry, couldn't resist), but Chris's comment rings true, because 鳥 niao3 also has the sense of "penis" in contemporary Mandarin slang, and the second character of the standard Taiwanese colloquial term for penis "lan3jiao2 " (屌 /鳥 depending on who writes it, and variously romanized as "ziau2" or "tsiau2") is pronounced identically to the word for "bird" in Taiwanese.

[LURKER]

When I work to Taiwan, I'd like to take the opportunity to learn Hokkien.

How difficult a task is this for someone with the ability to speak and read (intermediate level) Mandarin Chinese?

Also, how many opportunities are there to speak it (for those who have learned)?

Finally, any good solid learning materials on the Internet (archive.org amongst other sites is good for Mandarin, but searches for "Hokkien", "Min-Nan", "Taiwanese" and "Amoy" come up with disappointingly little in the way of learning materials).

Thanks.

[LURKER]

Oh I see my thread has been merged with this old one.

Sorry mods - I wasn't aware that bumping old threads is looked upon more kindly here than starting a new thread with the same topic as an existing one - in some places, bumping old threads is highly frowned upon.

I guess that's what the screaming, "Please SEARCH before posting!" sticky was all about.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bu Lai En:
<strong>my girlfriend won't help me because she doesn't like it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I've noticed that a lot of women here, especially in Taipei, seem to dislike Taiwanese. It's like they think speaking it is uncouth and below them or something, while guys generally don't seem to have a problem with it.

It's hard for me to make progress on my Taiwanese in Taipei because I already know Mandarin and it's too easy to use that to communicate, and everyone here speaks Mandarin. When I leave the city and go south, however, I try to speak Taiwanese with everyone.

I read the EXACT same thing in a journal article about a study of attitudes towards the Cantonese vernacular among native Cantonese speakers in Guangzhou. Basically, women were inclined to despise Cantonese as a sign of being low-class, and associated it with poverty and with men who had a low social status. On the other hand, men were more likely to have a positive attatchment to it.

[tommy525]

If you are tired of beating yourself over the head because of Mandarin, its clearly time for Taiwanese ! Because if you thought tones were tuff in Mandarin, then Taiwanese is even more precise.

But that being said, I don't think its any harder then Mandarin. Just that your tones have to sooo precise. TW people could (maybe less today) tell if you spoke Taipei Taiwanese , or Taichung Taiwanese or Kaohsiung Taiwanese or Yilan Taiwanese or classical Taiwanse like i speak (very old, nearly ancient words).

Maybe that was just my GF saying im old in a polite way tho.

[ironlady]

Having intermediate level Mandarin and wanting to learn Taiwanese is just perfect. All you need to do is buy a bottle of Whisbih from the 7-Eleven and speak Mandarin normally after drinking same.

Seriously, Mandarin will help with Taiwanese since the relationship between the two is such that many of the differences are predictable. But it will hinder you because the Mandarin word will want to pop out when you know it and aren't sure of the Taiwanese word. Of course if you mix the two indiscriminately, you'll fit right in!