Learning Taiwanese / Hokkien / Minnan / Min

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Re: Learning Taiwanese / Hokkien / Minnan / Min

Postby Bu Lai En » 09 Aug 2011, 15:10

I'm not saying there's necessarily anything better, but those Mary Knoll books and tapes are bloody boring as fuck, and the romanization system is horrible. Wish there was something more modern.
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Re: Learning Taiwanese / Hokkien / Minnan / Min

Postby Taffy » 09 Aug 2011, 15:22

There are over seventy phonetic systems knocking around for Taiwanese, but only a couple actually have any currency. I'm used to POJ now, so I suppose I don't notice its little idiosyncrasies as much, but if you want one closer to Hanyu Pinyin, there are a few possibilities. Years ago I even put one together myself. The trouble is finding material (even stuff as bloody boring as fuck) in anything other than POJ or Tai-lo (which is essentially POJ-Lite anyway).
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Re: Learning Taiwanese / Hokkien / Minnan / Min

Postby Dragonbones » 09 Aug 2011, 15:25

I'd like to see something a bit more compatible with Hanyu Pinyin. I don't want to learn one tone mark or Romanized consonant or vowel symbol in one system, only to have to interpret it differently in two different regionalects. It gets confusing. And the dialogues should begin with useful stuff, like how to cuss out the taxi driver who just cut you off. :lol:
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Re: Learning Taiwanese / Hokkien / Minnan / Min

Postby Taffy » 09 Aug 2011, 15:41

OK, so if you're designing a more HP-like system there are a few issues to consider (notation below is in IPA):

1. How to write b, g, dz, ʑ (the b and g from Hanyu Pinyin are actually p and k in IPA)
2. How to mark tones.
3. How to differentiate o and ɔ
4. How to mark nasal consonants
5. How to represent the stops
6. What to do about the (extremely extensive) tone sandhi

Somewhere I have a copy of my attempt from years ago to resolve these and produce a HP-like romanisation for Taiwanese. If anyone is interested I will dig it out. Another system modelled on HP is the Xiamen romanisation, but it has a number of flaws.
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Re: Learning Taiwanese / Hokkien / Minnan / Min

Postby rice_t » 09 Aug 2011, 20:12

Taffy wrote:OK, so if you're designing a more HP-like system there are a few issues to consider (notation below is in IPA):

1. How to write b, g, dz, ʑ (the b and g from Hanyu Pinyin are actually p and k in IPA)
2. How to mark tones.
3. How to differentiate o and ɔ
4. How to mark nasal consonants
5. How to represent the stops
6. What to do about the (extremely extensive) tone sandhi

Somewhere I have a copy of my attempt from years ago to resolve these and produce a HP-like romanisation for Taiwanese. If anyone is interested I will dig it out. Another system modelled on HP is the Xiamen romanisation, but it has a number of flaws.

I am interested.

I am in the process of creating my own system, with the additional challenge of making it compatible with extreme Quanzhou dialect (hai-khau-khiu), as I need it to write down pronounciation of nanguan song lyrics. For the moment I would be OK with something that works for hand-writing, but in the long run it should be just as easy to type as it is to write. I have learned Taiwanese at Maryknoll and I am used to the church transcription system, which is at least consistent, but inconvenient at the same time. My own little system is closer to hanyu pinyin, with some oddities like Greek letters and I can work with it, but it would be a nightmare to type.
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Re: Learning Taiwanese / Hokkien / Minnan / Min

Postby rice_t » 09 Aug 2011, 20:21

And, to get back on topic, the Maryknoll books may be a bit old-fashioned in terms of layout and didactics, but I learned so much about Taiwan, about the way people communicate here, their believes and value systems etc..
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Re: Learning Taiwanese / Hokkien / Minnan / Min

Postby Taffy » 10 Aug 2011, 09:17

rice_t wrote:extreme Quanzhou dialect

You're talking about features like [ɨ] and [ǝeʔ]?
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Re: Learning Taiwanese / Hokkien / Minnan / Min

Postby rice_t » 10 Aug 2011, 10:24

Taffy wrote:
rice_t wrote:extreme Quanzhou dialect

You're talking about features like [ɨ] and [ǝeʔ]?


I am not familiar with the phonetic alphabet, but [ɨ] and [ǝeʔ] look as if they could be the ones I mean. Looking at the vowel shift table on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Min_Nan it seems to be [ɯ] and [ə], but I assume that they are meant to be the same (one reason not to trust IPA)。 I mainly follow the romanization of 當代泉州音字彙 http://solution.cs.ucla.edu/~jinbo/dzl/lookup.php, but can't say I am entirely happy with it.
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Re: Learning Taiwanese / Hokkien / Minnan / Min

Postby Taffy » 10 Aug 2011, 10:38

OK, I understand. Including these sounds makes it more complex, especially if you want the system to be at least approachable by non-initiates. I'll find my version (which doesn't include Haikou forms) tonight.
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Re: Learning Taiwanese / Hokkien / Minnan / Min

Postby Feiren » 10 Aug 2011, 12:56

rice_t wrote:And, to get back on topic, the Maryknoll books may be a bit old-fashioned in terms of layout and didactics, but I learned so much about Taiwan, about the way people communicate here, their believes and value systems etc..



Yes, I agree. They are far better than the books that the Mandarin Training Centers put out which are divorced from the reality that most people in Taiwan actually live in. OK, used to live in, since the Maryknoll books are clearly set in 1970s and 1980s when people from rural areas were flocking to work in factories. The books are clearly designed for the people to studying them to go out and (1) live outside of Taipei and (2) do social work.

Also, there is not really very much religious content at all.
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