Linsanity about double nationality

Who can and cannot be a dual national, as well as the joys and frustrations accompanying that status. Includes ROC Passport and Military Conscription issues
Forum rules
While the moderators are happy to help point people in the right direction for legal assistance and to attempt to keep these forums civil and tidy, please bear in mind that an Internet forum is not the place for providing or receiving legal advice or for the creation of any attorney-client privileges or obligations. Also keep in mind that Forumosa and the moderators cannot conduct comprehensive reviews of all laws or legal concepts referenced or discussed within these forums – laws and regulations are updated and amended, interpretations do change, and sometimes the legal landscape can change very fast. Forumosa provides these legal forums for general informational purposes only. By using these legal forums, you agree that the information does not constitute legal or other professional advice and no attorney-client or other relationship is created between you and any other posters on these forums. DO NOT CONSIDER THE FORUMS TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR OBTAINING LEGAL ADVICE FROM A QUALIFIED LICENSED ATTORNEY.

Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby Hartzell » 12 Jun 2012, 18:48

A letter in the TAIPEI TIMES today challenges the interpretation of the Ministry of the Interior regarding this matter.


Is Jeremy Lin Taiwanese?
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editori ... 2003535108
Richard W. Hartzell
contact me by email at rwh.midway@gmail.com
Neihu District, Taipei (114)
Forumosan avatar
Hartzell
Mando-pop Singer (Guóyǔ liúxíng gēshǒu)
Mando-pop Singer (Guóyǔ liúxíng gēshǒu)
 
Posts: 2345
Joined: 31 Oct 2000, 17:01
Location: Nei Hu District, Taipei, Taiwan
19 Recognized(s)



Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby housecat » 12 Jun 2012, 20:08

As China maintains that our little island is Chinese, if a Taiwanese passport holder goes to China, will he/she be considered a citizen? Is it normal for a citizen to have to get a visa to his/her own country? So, if Lin is Taiwanese, then he must also be Chinese.

???

It's all just a knock-off brand of cheap, easy, crazy.
Forumosan avatar
housecat
Almost a God (jīhū shì shén)
Almost a God (jīhū shì shén)
 
Posts: 6613
Joined: 16 Jun 2003, 18:14
Location: Seven Bridges Road
96 Recommends(s)
115 Recognized(s)



Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby Teddoman » 12 Jun 2012, 21:41

Hartzell wrote:A letter in the TAIPEI TIMES today challenges the interpretation of the Ministry of the Interior regarding this matter.


Is Jeremy Lin Taiwanese?
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editori ... 2003535108

It looks like gnaji's post addresses this. Obtaining services from those other Taiwan bureaus and divisions requires a Taiwan ID, which is for all intents and purposes the equivalent of Taiwanese citizenship in terms of the bundle of rights that comes with a Taiwan ID.

ROC nationality is a politicized fiction created by the KMT long ago to support the claim that the ROC represented all of China. In practical terms, ROC nationality is empty of any rights, so for all intents and purposes, "ROC nationality" doesn't grant you any privileges.

To comform with international norms, they should change the terms as follows:
ROC guoji (nationality)--> "Belongee of meaningless significance to legacy KMT concept of greater China"
ROC huji (residency) --> "Taiwan citizen"
Teddoman
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
 
Posts: 261
Joined: 03 Jan 2005, 00:31
12 Recommends(s)
10 Recognized(s)



Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby BAH » 14 Jun 2012, 14:13

Icon wrote:You see, where I come from, we can't renounce, at all. It is problematic.


Where's this? I have the same problem for my baby son. I am American and Taiwanese and my son was born in China. I applied for US citizenship when he was born and he's got a US passport.

Now he's in kind of Twilight Zone... China considers him Chinese since his mother is Chinese. This means to exit China he needs an exit permit! He doesn't have a Chinese visa because the Chinese embassy won't issue him a visa, saying he's Chinese! (At least this is at the one in Hong Kong, haven't tried any of the US ones yet).

I went to renounce his Chinese citizenship but the authorities said no one renounces (meaning people just keep both, even though it's against the law). I insisted, and he kind of shrugged and said he'd try but no guarantees China will let him renounce. WTF??
Forumosan avatar
BAH
Chair-throwing Legislator (rēng yǐzi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
Chair-throwing Legislator (rēng yǐzi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
 
Posts: 306
Joined: 24 Oct 2001, 16:01
Location: Shanghai
1 Recommends(s)
1 Recognized(s)



Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby Icon » 14 Jun 2012, 14:21

As I explained somewher else, this was implemented originally as a benefit, so people who wanted to regain their nationality after they renounced in order to get another one, could still backtrack. Problem is the way the law sees it, you can't "eliminate" it completely from your record. As you have experinecd yourself, it can get complicated, a right that backfires as an obligation.
"Lo urgente no deja tiempo para lo importante". Mafalda

"Nice guy? Who gives a shit? If you want to work here, close."
Forumosan avatar
Icon
Guan Yin (Guānyīn)
 
Posts: 15254
ORIGINAL POSTER
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 18:03
Location: Xindian
722 Recommends(s)
567 Recognized(s)



Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby 914 » 19 Jun 2012, 00:50

This is so twilight zone.

We are living in taiwan with our kids all of us on my spouse's arc, entered usung American passports, no nhi. We just had a child in tw and sent in documents to our accountants to process the newest additions arc. They come back and tell us they cant do it. The national immigration agency says as one parent is a citizen of Taiwan, this child is automatically a citizen of Taiwan. As we do not have hukou because we're Americans, we must register this child on a "relative's" hukou. Wtf? All of us entered on an American passport! Then we are supposed to get the child a tw passport, fly out, fly back using childs American passport, remove child from hukou, and then apply for arc. Can u even put an english name on a hukou? How does a "relative" explain why this child is on their hukou and not the parents?

So if one parent was born in tw, but no hukou, doesnt enter on a tw passport, still considered a "citizen"? Its confusing. There must be a clear definition of nationality vs citizen that I missed. Can someone direct me?
Messages are sent from my iPad so if you find any errors, you may keep them. Myspacebarhasissues.
Forumosan avatar
914
Lost Winning Lotto Ticket (zhòngjiǎng cǎiquàn nòngdiū le)
Lost Winning Lotto Ticket (zhòngjiǎng cǎiquàn nòngdiū le)
 
Posts: 2852
Joined: 01 Jun 2004, 16:11
Location: YVR to SFO to TPE; Now in semi-retirement in Sky Mother
35 Recommends(s)
38 Recognized(s)



Linsanity about double nationality

Postby headhonchoII » 19 Jun 2012, 03:31

Teddoman wrote:Very informative gnaij, it seems like there have been a few threads with people expressing confusion on ROC passports so this pretty definitively clears it up.

I find it kind of interesting that in order to have this concept of China citizenship that goes back to the original KMT claim of representing all of China, they therefore had to come up with this concept of Taiwan huji, which for all intensive purposes contains the bundle of what most people think of as actual citizenship rights. So effectively, a Taiwan ID card is what most of us would think of as a passport or identification card for a full citizen.


Correct , hence the importance of huji and Taiwan 'shen fen zheng' here.
The huji system goes backs thousands of years though and was the means of census and taxation and how the emperor monitored and controlled the Chinese.

It predates modern ideas of passports and citizenship. The Japanese also operated huji in Taiwan , the KMT simply took over their existing records.

Essentially you should forget about ideas of nationality and citizenship and realize that you belong somewhere first by Hukou, if you don't belong to a Hukou first how can you exist ;).
I can remember the fourth of July runnin' through the backwood bare.
And I can still hear my old hound dog barkin' chasin' down a hoodoo there
Chasin' down a hoodoo there.
headhonchoII
Maitreya Buddha (Mílèfó)
 
Posts: 12622
Joined: 26 Aug 2002, 10:40
Location: Taipei
1719 Recommends(s)
622 Recognized(s)



Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby confucious » 28 Jul 2012, 07:46

lin's parents would have to have active household registrations in order for him to apply, and they have to return to Taiwan every 2 yrs in order to keep it active. if theyve been away for 3yrs or more and not kept it active, then he shouldnt be able to apply. alot of overseas taiwanese dont go back to tw on a regular basis, especially mainlanders. lot's of them havent been back for 10yrs. also lin would have to live in tw for 1yr without leaving to become a full citizen. it's easy to get the overseas Chinese status, but getting the citizenship requires comitment. if lin has some kind of criminal record, then that may prevent him from becoming a citizen. all this stuff are reasons why many overseas Chinese have not applied for citizenship. this system is very different from western countries like britain, canada, germany, etc. I think the japanese had their own motive for bringing back the overseas japanese. and since the brazilians japanese went back, the japanese govt had changed their minds, and changed the laws.
Forumosan avatar
confucious
Ink Still Wet in Passport (shífēn xīnshǒu)
Ink Still Wet in Passport (shífēn xīnshǒu)
 
Posts: 2
Joined: 27 Jul 2012, 19:56
Location: CHINATOWN



Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby kaikai34 » 28 Jul 2012, 09:06

914 wrote:This is so twilight zone.

We are living in taiwan with our kids all of us on my spouse's arc, entered usung American passports, no nhi. We just had a child in tw and sent in documents to our accountants to process the newest additions arc. They come back and tell us they cant do it. The national immigration agency says as one parent is a citizen of Taiwan, this child is automatically a citizen of Taiwan. As we do not have hukou because we're Americans, we must register this child on a "relative's" hukou. Wtf? All of us entered on an American passport! Then we are supposed to get the child a tw passport, fly out, fly back using childs American passport, remove child from hukou, and then apply for arc. Can u even put an english name on a hukou? How does a "relative" explain why this child is on their hukou and not the parents?

So if one parent was born in tw, but no hukou, doesnt enter on a tw passport, still considered a "citizen"? Its confusing. There must be a clear definition of nationality vs citizen that I missed. Can someone direct me?


I think your spouse should have a hukou if she was born in Taiwan just like your child will have one. You may need to go to the local household registry office to see if you can track down where her las huji was set at. I may be wrong though, it just seems logical.
Forumosan avatar
kaikai34
Chinese Class Dropout (Zhōngwén kè zhōngchuòshēng)
Chinese Class Dropout (Zhōngwén kè zhōngchuòshēng)
 
Posts: 788
Joined: 13 Apr 2008, 20:32
22 Recommends(s)
34 Recognized(s)



Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby Zla'od » 28 Jul 2012, 16:18

does anyone else read in here like they are planning to give him an ROC passport as soon as he steps one foot into this Island, and somewhere maybe, if he's still famous, push an electoral position on him?


Or draft him into the army!

Japan is another example - children born as ROC-Japan dual nationals need to renounce the ROC nationality or lose the Japanese nationality by age 22.


This is never enforced.
“If a bodhisattva resides as a householder and there appears a woman who is clearly unbound to anyone, habituated to sexual indulgence, attracted to the bodhisattva and seeking sexual activities, the bodhisattva having seen this thinks, 'Do not make her mind upset, producing much misfortune. If she pursues her desire, she will obtain freedom. As expedient means [upaya] I will take her in and have her plant the roots for virtue, also having her abandon unwholesome karma. I will engage in impure activities [abrahma-carya] with a compassionate mind.' Even practising such defiled activities like this, there is nothing that is violated [precepts], and much merit will be produced." -- from the Yogācārabhūmi Śāstra

For even more saucy Buddhist scripture, see http://sdhammika.blogspot.tw/2010/08/st ... m-all.html
Zla'od
Sidewalk Geomancer (lù biān suàn mìng tān)
Sidewalk Geomancer (lù biān suàn mìng tān)
 
Posts: 1073
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 08:36
76 Recognized(s)



FRIENDLY REMINDER
   Please remember that Forumosa is not responsible for the content that appears on the other side of links that Forumosans post on our forums. As a discussion website, we encourage open and frank debate. We have learned that the most effective way to address questionable claims or accusations on Forumosa is by engaging in a sincere and constructive conversation. To make this website work, we must all feel safe in expressing our opinions, this also means backing up any claims with hard facts, including links to other websites.
   Please also remember that one should not believe everything one reads on the Internet, particularly from websites whose content cannot be easily verified or substantiated. Use your common sense and do not hesitate to ask for proof.
PreviousNext




Proceed to Dual Nationality



Who is online

Forumosans browsing this forum: No Forumosans and 1 visitor

Every second is of infinite value -- JOHANN WOLFGANG VON GOETHE