Linsanity about double nationality

Who can and cannot be a dual national, as well as the joys and frustrations accompanying that status. Includes ROC Passport and Military Conscription issues
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Linsanity about double nationality

Postby Icon » 07 Jun 2012, 17:18

seems ROC nationality cannot be avoided... or so I gather from this. If it is in your blood, then you are always carrying it.

Amid an ongoing public debate about whether NBA star Jeremy Lin (林書豪) is Taiwanese, Deputy Minister of the Interior Chien Tai-lang (簡太郎) seems to have an official answer, saying that, legally, Lin is a Republic of China (ROC) national.
...

“Of course Lin is an ROC national,” Chien said at a meeting of the legislature’s Internal Administration Committee. “Since Lin was born to parents who are ROC nationals, he is automatically granted ROC nationality. He is therefore an ROC national, unless he formally renounces his ROC nationality, but he hasn’t done so as far as I know.”

Chien was referring to Article 2 of the Nationality Act (國籍法), which stipulates that anyone who has at least one parent who is an ROC national is automatically granted ROC nationality.Chien made the remarks during discussions of whether ROC citizens born overseas should be allowed to run for president.

Taiwan Solidarity Union Legislator Huang Wen-ling (黃文玲) had asked Chien if someone born and raised in another country, citing Lin as an example, should be allowed to run for president if the person obtains ROC citizenship.


http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/a ... 2003534707

Hence, technically speaking, ALL kids born of Taiwanese citizens abroad are dual citizens, hence cannot hold public office abroad unless officially renounces to it. It is a right that cuts both ways.

Question: what if for example, if any of the people who have attained ROC nationality goes abroad, marries, has a kid. Is the kid considered Taiwanese? Is he allowed to choose nationality and then citizenship of ROC? Up to what age? Legally speaking, of course. :wink:

ps.
does anyone else read in here like they are planning to give him an ROC passport as soon as he steps one foot into this Island, and somewhere maybe, if he's still famous, push an electoral position on him?
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Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby gnaij » 08 Jun 2012, 20:01

Icon wrote:Hence, technically speaking, ALL kids born of Taiwanese citizens abroad are dual citizens, hence cannot hold public office abroad unless officially renounces to it. It is a right that cuts both ways.


Many countries, such as the United States, do not have a prohibition against dual citizens holding public office. U.S. Rep. Michele Bachmann recently naturalized as a Swiss citizen. Arnold Schwarzenegger has retained his Austrian citizenship while governor.

Unlike British nationality, there is no limit on the number of generations that ROC nationality can be transmitted. All Chinese people in the world are technically ROC nationals. Even the Dalai Lama is legal a ROC national and was forced to enter Taiwan using an entry permit. It's just been harder to exercise this right since 2002. Until 2002, any person of Chinese descent living outside of China could get an Overseas Chinese Certificate and use that the apply for a ROC passport.

Question: what if for example, if any of the people who have attained ROC nationality goes abroad, marries, has a kid. Is the kid considered Taiwanese? Is he allowed to choose nationality and then citizenship of ROC? Up to what age? Legally speaking, of course.


Under ROC law there is no prohibition against dual nationality. It is held for life unless the kid affirmatively renounces it. The kid would not have to choose. The other nationality acquired at birth may force the kid to choose though. For example, Barack Obama was technically a Kenyan citizen until he turned 23 in 1984 - since Kenya forbids dual citizenship for adults, he would have had to renounce his US citizenship to remain a Kenyan citizen. Japan is another example - children born as ROC-Japan dual nationals need to renounce the ROC nationality or lose the Japanese nationality by age 22.

does anyone else read in here like they are planning to give him an ROC passport as soon as he steps one foot into this Island, and somewhere maybe, if he's still famous, push an electoral position on him?


Since he was born abroad, he has to apply for his passport abroad using his US birth certificate. He may not enter Taiwan on a US passport and attempt to apply it from within.
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Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby Teddoman » 09 Jun 2012, 00:05

Yes but I believe you would have to give up your non-Taiwan citizenship to hold certain positions in Taiwan. I vaguely recall the Nobel Prize winner who returned to Taiwan to run the Academica Sinica having to abandon his long held US citizenship to take this position. Not sure but I assume this would extend to public office.
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Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby housecat » 09 Jun 2012, 05:40

My son was born here and as I'm a US citizen he was "automatically" granted US citizenship, too. But if I hadn't applied for it, he'd never have gotten it. I had to formally request his US citizenship. If I hadn't, no one in the States would have gone on record as saying that he was of course a US citizen because he was born to a US citizen. So maybe it's more correct to say that of course Lin has rights to ROC citizenship, should he choose to apply. That's not the same thing as already being a citizen.
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Linsanity about double nationality

Postby headhonchoII » 09 Jun 2012, 09:35

I don't think it was so easy to become an ROC national as otherwise half the Chinese descendants in South East Asia would have applied. In fact even the descendants of the KMT army in Myanmar had found it difficult to get an ROC ID, as have numerous Tibetan refugees.

Nope, don't believe it.

All legislators are forbidden to hold foreign nationality or green cards, so are control yuan and various other govt positions and offfice holders. Hence the infamous Diane Chen case a while back.
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Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby gnaij » 10 Jun 2012, 00:51

headhonchoII wrote:I don't think it was so easy to become an ROC national as otherwise half the Chinese descendants in South East Asia would have applied. In fact even the descendants of the KMT army in Myanmar had found it difficult to get an ROC ID, as have numerous Tibetan refugees.

Nope, don't believe it.

All legislators are forbidden to hold foreign nationality or green cards, so are control yuan and various other govt positions and offfice holders. Hence the infamous Diane Chen case a while back.


The issue is explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_w ... gistration
Nationality 國籍 and household registration 戶籍 are two separate concepts that come with a separate set of privileges under ROC law. Anyone with the latter must hold the former; holding the former does not necessarily require the latter.

Until 10 years ago, it was really easy to obtain a ROC passports. As you can see from some of the posts on this board, numerous overseas Chinese residing in the Philippines continue to hold ROC passports despite having no connection to Taiwan. But to hold a ROC ID card and exercise citizenship rights in Taiwan requires having household registration in Taiwan - for those with no connection to Taiwan this is very difficult to obtain. Countries granting visa-free privileges for ROC passport holders almost universally require an ID number to be printed in the passport, indicating that the holder is entitled to the full set of citizenship rights in Taiwan and can be repatriated there upon demand. An ROC passport without an ID number is not much more useful than any old certificate of identity.

This post was recommended by Taffy (10 Jun 2012, 17:54)
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Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby Icon » 10 Jun 2012, 13:34

housecat wrote:My son was born here and as I'm a US citizen he was "automatically" granted US citizenship, too. But if I hadn't applied for it, he'd never have gotten it. I had to formally request his US citizenship. If I hadn't, no one in the States would have gone on record as saying that he was of course a US citizen because he was born to a US citizen. So maybe it's more correct to say that of course Lin has rights to ROC citizenship, should he choose to apply. That's not the same thing as already being a citizen.


Exactly. It should be a choice, not an inexorable imposition. A right, not an obligation.

And yes, there is a difference between nationality and citizenship, and right thereof derived.

What I mean to say, if for instance me, I get Taiwanese full citizenship. I move abroad, I marry and have kids, will the kids have the right to request ROC's nationality, and if so, up to when?

I really resent the deputy minister's implication that if you are Chinese, you fall under ROC's jurisdiction, which Gnajij also mentions. I really do not like that it sounds imposed.
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Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby gnaij » 10 Jun 2012, 16:14

Icon wrote:What I mean to say, if for instance me, I get Taiwanese full citizenship. I move abroad, I marry and have kids, will the kids have the right to request ROC's nationality, and if so, up to when?

I really resent the deputy minister's implication that if you are Chinese, you fall under ROC's jurisdiction, which Gnajij also mentions. I really do not like that it sounds imposed.


I don't see how ROC nationality law is in any way unusual here. If your parent is a national, then you should be one too. The same jus sanguinis right is applied by the UK, US, Germany, France, Japan, Australia, etc. and almost every (i.e. non-Communist) country in the world that does not expressly forbid dual nationality for minors. The only unusual generosity granted under current ROC nationality law is that there is no residency requirement for nationality to be transmitted by descent - the US, for example, requires that the parent have resided in the US for at least 5 years for US citizenship to be passed to the overseas-born offspring.

The government said that Jeremy Lin is a ROC national because his parents are ROC nationals, not because he is Chinese. This sounds reasonable and in line with prevailing global conventions. Nationality in this case can be freely renounced without consequence.
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Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby Teddoman » 10 Jun 2012, 23:04

Very informative gnaij, it seems like there have been a few threads with people expressing confusion on ROC passports so this pretty definitively clears it up.

I find it kind of interesting that in order to have this concept of China citizenship that goes back to the original KMT claim of representing all of China, they therefore had to come up with this concept of Taiwan huji, which for all intensive purposes contains the bundle of what most people think of as actual citizenship rights. So effectively, a Taiwan ID card is what most of us would think of as a passport or identification card for a full citizen.
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Re: Linsanity about double nationality

Postby Icon » 10 Jun 2012, 23:20

gnaij wrote:
Icon wrote:What I mean to say, if for instance me, I get Taiwanese full citizenship. I move abroad, I marry and have kids, will the kids have the right to request ROC's nationality, and if so, up to when?

I really resent the deputy minister's implication that if you are Chinese, you fall under ROC's jurisdiction, which Gnajij also mentions. I really do not like that it sounds imposed.


I don't see how ROC nationality law is in any way unusual here. If your parent is a national, then you should be one too. The same jus sanguinis right is applied by the UK, US, Germany, France, Japan, Australia, etc. and almost every (i.e. non-Communist) country in the world that does not expressly forbid dual nationality for minors. The only unusual generosity granted under current ROC nationality law is that there is no residency requirement for nationality to be transmitted by descent - the US, for example, requires that the parent have resided in the US for at least 5 years for US citizenship to be passed to the overseas-born offspring.

The government said that Jeremy Lin is a ROC national because his parents are ROC nationals, not because he is Chinese. This sounds reasonable and in line with prevailing global conventions. Nationality in this case can be freely renounced without consequence.


As I said, as long as it is a right, not an obligation, I am all for it. As long as there is a choice. You see, where I come from, we can't renounce, at all. It is problematic. It is supposed to be a good thing, but it can backfire easily. I do not want that as an ROC citizen by choice.
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