Linsanity about double nationality

[Hartzell]

A letter in the TAIPEI TIMES today challenges the interpretation of the Ministry of the Interior regarding this matter.


Is Jeremy Lin Taiwanese?
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editori ... 2003535108

[housecat]

As China maintains that our little island is Chinese, if a Taiwanese passport holder goes to China, will he/she be considered a citizen? Is it normal for a citizen to have to get a visa to his/her own country? So, if Lin is Taiwanese, then he must also be Chinese.

???

It's all just a knock-off brand of cheap, easy, crazy.

[Teddoman]

A letter in the TAIPEI TIMES today challenges the interpretation of the Ministry of the Interior regarding this matter.


Is Jeremy Lin Taiwanese?
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editori ... 2003535108

It looks like gnaji's post addresses this. Obtaining services from those other Taiwan bureaus and divisions requires a Taiwan ID, which is for all intents and purposes the equivalent of Taiwanese citizenship in terms of the bundle of rights that comes with a Taiwan ID.

ROC nationality is a politicized fiction created by the KMT long ago to support the claim that the ROC represented all of China. In practical terms, ROC nationality is empty of any rights, so for all intents and purposes, "ROC nationality" doesn't grant you any privileges.

To comform with international norms, they should change the terms as follows:
ROC guoji (nationality)--> "Belongee of meaningless significance to legacy KMT concept of greater China"
ROC huji (residency) --> "Taiwan citizen"

[BAH]

You see, where I come from, we can't renounce, at all. It is problematic.

Where's this? I have the same problem for my baby son. I am American and Taiwanese and my son was born in China. I applied for US citizenship when he was born and he's got a US passport.

Now he's in kind of Twilight Zone... China considers him Chinese since his mother is Chinese. This means to exit China he needs an exit permit! He doesn't have a Chinese visa because the Chinese embassy won't issue him a visa, saying he's Chinese! (At least this is at the one in Hong Kong, haven't tried any of the US ones yet).

I went to renounce his Chinese citizenship but the authorities said no one renounces (meaning people just keep both, even though it's against the law). I insisted, and he kind of shrugged and said he'd try but no guarantees China will let him renounce. WTF??

[Icon]

As I explained somewher else, this was implemented originally as a benefit, so people who wanted to regain their nationality after they renounced in order to get another one, could still backtrack. Problem is the way the law sees it, you can't "eliminate" it completely from your record. As you have experinecd yourself, it can get complicated, a right that backfires as an obligation.

[914]

This is so twilight zone.

We are living in taiwan with our kids all of us on my spouse's arc, entered usung American passports, no nhi. We just had a child in tw and sent in documents to our accountants to process the newest additions arc. They come back and tell us they cant do it. The national immigration agency says as one parent is a citizen of Taiwan, this child is automatically a citizen of Taiwan. As we do not have hukou because we're Americans, we must register this child on a "relative's" hukou. Wtf? All of us entered on an American passport! Then we are supposed to get the child a tw passport, fly out, fly back using childs American passport, remove child from hukou, and then apply for arc. Can u even put an english name on a hukou? How does a "relative" explain why this child is on their hukou and not the parents?

So if one parent was born in tw, but no hukou, doesnt enter on a tw passport, still considered a "citizen"? Its confusing. There must be a clear definition of nationality vs citizen that I missed. Can someone direct me?

[headhonchoII]

Very informative gnaij, it seems like there have been a few threads with people expressing confusion on ROC passports so this pretty definitively clears it up.

I find it kind of interesting that in order to have this concept of China citizenship that goes back to the original KMT claim of representing all of China, they therefore had to come up with this concept of Taiwan huji, which for all intensive purposes contains the bundle of what most people think of as actual citizenship rights. So effectively, a Taiwan ID card is what most of us would think of as a passport or identification card for a full citizen.

Correct , hence the importance of huji and Taiwan 'shen fen zheng' here.
The huji system goes backs thousands of years though and was the means of census and taxation and how the emperor monitored and controlled the Chinese.

It predates modern ideas of passports and citizenship. The Japanese also operated huji in Taiwan , the KMT simply took over their existing records.

Essentially you should forget about ideas of nationality and citizenship and realize that you belong somewhere first by Hukou, if you don't belong to a Hukou first how can you exist .

[confucious]

lin's parents would have to have active household registrations in order for him to apply, and they have to return to Taiwan every 2 yrs in order to keep it active. if theyve been away for 3yrs or more and not kept it active, then he shouldnt be able to apply. alot of overseas taiwanese dont go back to tw on a regular basis, especially mainlanders. lot's of them havent been back for 10yrs. also lin would have to live in tw for 1yr without leaving to become a full citizen. it's easy to get the overseas Chinese status, but getting the citizenship requires comitment. if lin has some kind of criminal record, then that may prevent him from becoming a citizen. all this stuff are reasons why many overseas Chinese have not applied for citizenship. this system is very different from western countries like britain, canada, germany, etc. I think the japanese had their own motive for bringing back the overseas japanese. and since the brazilians japanese went back, the japanese govt had changed their minds, and changed the laws.

[kaikai34]

This is so twilight zone.

We are living in taiwan with our kids all of us on my spouse's arc, entered usung American passports, no nhi. We just had a child in tw and sent in documents to our accountants to process the newest additions arc. They come back and tell us they cant do it. The national immigration agency says as one parent is a citizen of Taiwan, this child is automatically a citizen of Taiwan. As we do not have hukou because we're Americans, we must register this child on a "relative's" hukou. Wtf? All of us entered on an American passport! Then we are supposed to get the child a tw passport, fly out, fly back using childs American passport, remove child from hukou, and then apply for arc. Can u even put an english name on a hukou? How does a "relative" explain why this child is on their hukou and not the parents?

So if one parent was born in tw, but no hukou, doesnt enter on a tw passport, still considered a "citizen"? Its confusing. There must be a clear definition of nationality vs citizen that I missed. Can someone direct me?

I think your spouse should have a hukou if she was born in Taiwan just like your child will have one. You may need to go to the local household registry office to see if you can track down where her las huji was set at. I may be wrong though, it just seems logical.

[Zla'od]

does anyone else read in here like they are planning to give him an ROC passport as soon as he steps one foot into this Island, and somewhere maybe, if he's still famous, push an electoral position on him?

Or draft him into the army!

Japan is another example - children born as ROC-Japan dual nationals need to renounce the ROC nationality or lose the Japanese nationality by age 22.

This is never enforced.