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Dual nationality is already a reality for foreigners from many countries

Who can and cannot be a dual national, as well as the joys and frustrations accompanying that status. Includes ROC Passport and Military Conscription issues
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Dual nationality is already a reality for foreigners from many countries

Postby hsinhai78 » 11 Nov 2013, 07:32

Mod's note: This was split from http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi ... 0#p1564175

Taiwan_Student wrote: Now, where can I get Hartzel's card. He sure helped me in the beginning, but I think he is spinning his wheels on this one. I am forever in his debt for walking me through each stage from ARC, to work permit and to getting my kids Taiwanese Citizenship. I wish he'd come back to the fold and start arguing for Dual citizenship rights.


http://www.civil-taiwan.org/id-card.htm

This is the website of the self-proclaimed "taiwan civil government". As far as I know Hartzell has opened his own government though. It's a bit like the anti-pope also having an anti-pope.

Dual nationality is already a reality for foreigners of countries that do not release their citizens from the original citizenship, i.e. Japan although Japan does not condone dual-nationality. It is interesting that for practical purposes Japanese nationality law leads to Japanese citizens being able to naturalise as ROC citizens and retain their Japanese citizenship. There are countless other examples of this, i.e. the Philippines that declares any renunciation for the purpose of naturalisation abroad null and void. Instead of pestering the NIA and Legislative Yuan foreigners should petition their own governments to come up with regulations that makes giving up their citizenship impossible for the purpose of naturalisation in the ROC.
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Re: APRC: Worth it?

Postby headhonchoII » 11 Nov 2013, 08:10

You do talk some rubbish sometimes don't you.
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Re: APRC: Worth it?

Postby hsinhai78 » 11 Nov 2013, 08:58

headhonchoII wrote:You do talk some rubbish sometimes don't you.


Where did I talk rubbish? All links provided in my post lead you to official government websites.

http://law.moj.gov.tw/eng/LawClass/LawSearchNo.aspx?PC=D0030001&DF=&SNo=9

A foreign national who applies for naturalization according to Article 3 to Article 7 shall provide the certification of his/her loss of previous nationality. But if he/she alleges he/she can’t obtain the certificate for causes not attributable to him/her and foreign affairs authorities investigate and determine that this is true, he/she does not need to provide the certificate.


Japan routinely refuses to issue a renunciation certificate in the case of Taiwan and so do a handful of other countries. Article 9 of the ROC Nationality Act was specifically enacted to protect the interests of Taiwanese and their Japanese wives/husbands. Just check the legislative history and follow up on the deliberations that lead to this article. Typical for Taiwan would have been "You can't provide the document? Well then screw you, this is our SOP and you are so out of luck now!" - yet interestingly they provided for relief in these cases.

Republic Act No. 9225 of the Philippines provides that Filipinos who renounced Philippine citizenship to acquire the citizenship of a foreign country did not actually lose their Philippine nationality and that the renunciation is deemed null and void.

http://immigration.gov.ph/?option=com_content&task=view&id=163&Itemid=83

It is hereby declared the policy of the State that all Philippine citizens who become citizens of another country shall be deemed not to have lost their Philippine citizenship under the conditions of this Act.

[...]

Any provision of law to the contrary notwithstanding, natural-born citizens of the Philippines who have lost their Philippine citizenship by reason of their naturalization as citizens of a foreign country are hereby deemed to have re-acquired Philippine citizenship


This kind of regulation is one of the few things where a Philippine government actually helped the people circumvent a naturalisation requirements that many here on Forumosa oppose. And obviously your own government will (or should at least) be more sympathetic to your situation than a government (i.e. ROC) that opposes the kind of immigration most people on Forumosa want and know from back home.

So I am afraid you are the ones who talks rubbish.
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Re: APRC: Worth it?

Postby Icon » 11 Nov 2013, 09:20

hsinhai78 wrote:
Taiwan_Student wrote: Now, where can I get Hartzel's card. He sure helped me in the beginning, but I think he is spinning his wheels on this one. I am forever in his debt for walking me through each stage from ARC, to work permit and to getting my kids Taiwanese Citizenship. I wish he'd come back to the fold and start arguing for Dual citizenship rights.


http://www.civil-taiwan.org/id-card.htm

This is the website of the self-proclaimed "taiwan civil government". As far as I know Hartzell has opened his own government though. It's a bit like the anti-pope also having an anti-pope.

Dual nationality is already a reality for foreigners of countries that do not release their citizens from the original citizenship, i.e. Japan although Japan does not condone dual-nationality. It is interesting that for practical purposes Japanese nationality law leads to Japanese citizens being able to naturalise as ROC citizens and retain their Japanese citizenship. There are countless other examples of this, i.e. the Philippines that declares any renunciation for the purpose of naturalisation abroad null and void. Instead of pestering the NIA and Legislative Yuan foreigners should petition their own governments to come up with regulations that makes giving up their citizenship impossible for the purpose of naturalisation in the ROC.


Actually, those are very difficult exceptions and the ROC immigration would most likely decline the petition. In most circles, the issue is a hush-hush, because it is very delicate. And coming from one of those places, it has actually more disadvantages not being able to renounce to your nationality than being able to relinquish and get another one.

The Japanese thing is due to historical links. It is an exception, not a general rule. As said, if whitey attempts the same, it will be a tough, not likely to win fight.

As to Hartzel and the whole ROC/Taiwan thing, it is the argument set forth by hardliners here as to why we cannot have a Taiwan country, since all treaties and accords have been signed as ROC. However, the treaties with China are negotiated among polities parties, KMT and CCP. That ain't that clear. Hartzel and others have some legal arguments regarding Taiwan as a protectorate thanks to historical precedents and the ambivalences in international treaties and lots of gaping holes left in the development of the government here. To make matters worse, the way the ROC sold itself in the past abroad means people confuse this with China still. Identity and nationality do not go hand in hand in this nation, though we have managed to live peacefully striving for common goals so far. However, as the noose tightens around the neck of the people, due to the goals of a few to turn it into their own piggy bank,. the question of loyalty is asked of those with their hand tight on the grip. The foreigners have no beef in this fight, at most like Hartzel would like to build a wall both sides would respect until the time is such that negotiations can be engaged for all to be benefited, not just a few. This is where the strife lies now. We like it here, we want to contribute, but we feel that hope is fading fast, as well as resources, due to the negligent idea of just passing by and milking this island for quick profit by people who are not foreigners. That is not our general attitude, many foreigners have given a lot to the development of this nation, without receiving recognition. Some have been honored with APRCs. Some have turned Taiwanese. Some just keep fighting silent and relentlessly.
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Re: APRC: Worth it?

Postby hsinhai78 » 11 Nov 2013, 09:37

Icon wrote: The Japanese thing is due to historical links. It is an exception, not a general rule. As said, if whitey attempts the same, it will be a tough, not likely to win fight.


I do not see a legal basis for this sort of discrimination. The process is quite simple: the foreign government issues a document stating that the citizen will not be released due to ROC not being recognised/the nationality law not providing for renunciation/ etc. and the TECRO office in the foreign country authenticates the signatures/seals of the foreign government. Then a translation is done in Taiwan at a district court and the TECRO stamp is authenticated by BoCA. I have never heard of a case where such a document had been refused in the process of naturalisation.
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Re: APRC: Worth it?

Postby Icon » 11 Nov 2013, 09:48

hsinhai78 wrote:
Icon wrote: The Japanese thing is due to historical links. It is an exception, not a general rule. As said, if whitey attempts the same, it will be a tough, not likely to win fight.


I do not see a legal basis for this sort of discrimination. The process is quite simple: the foreign government issues a document stating that the citizen will not be released due to ROC not being recognised/the nationality law not providing for renunciation/ etc. and the TECRO office in the foreign country authenticates the signatures/seals of the foreign government. Then a translation is done in Taiwan at a district court and the TECRO stamp is authenticated by BoCA. I have never heard of a case where such a document had been refused in the process of naturalisation.


It is up to them to accept or reject your application. Mostly from Japan are accepted, they are the most common, well-known cases, others have to jump the hoops, and may or may not.

And remember, it is not just a matter of renouncing your nationality to get a pretty shenfengzheng.
Lo urgente no deja tiempo para lo importante. Mafalda.

None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Eat the delicious food. Walk in the sunshine. Jump in the ocean. Say the truth that you’re carrying in your heart like hidden treasure. Be silly. Be kind. Be weird. There’s no time for anything else.
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Re: APRC: Worth it?

Postby hsinhai78 » 11 Nov 2013, 10:06

Icon wrote:
hsinhai78 wrote:
Icon wrote: The Japanese thing is due to historical links. It is an exception, not a general rule. As said, if whitey attempts the same, it will be a tough, not likely to win fight.


I do not see a legal basis for this sort of discrimination. The process is quite simple: the foreign government issues a document stating that the citizen will not be released due to ROC not being recognised/the nationality law not providing for renunciation/ etc. and the TECRO office in the foreign country authenticates the signatures/seals of the foreign government. Then a translation is done in Taiwan at a district court and the TECRO stamp is authenticated by BoCA. I have never heard of a case where such a document had been refused in the process of naturalisation.


It is up to them to accept or reject your application. Mostly from Japan are accepted, they are the most common, well-known cases, others have to jump the hoops, and may or may not.

And remember, it is not just a matter of renouncing your nationality to get a pretty shenfengzheng.


They must follow the enforcement acts and as long as you fulfil the formal requirements they cannot refuse you. That is what IMHO puts the ROC higher up in terms of the rule of law as compared to Belgium, the Netherlands or Ireland where naturalisation is not the consequence of fulfilling formal requirements but granted upon fulfilling the requirements. The difference being that fulfilling the requirements does not have an immediate consequence and no right can be derived from it.

Hypothetically, should the ROC government not accept my naturalisation application for reasons not related to formal legal requirements I would take them to administrative court knowing that I will win.
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