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Dual Nationality developments [March 2014]

Who can and cannot be a dual national, as well as the joys and frustrations accompanying that status. Includes ROC Passport and Military Conscription issues
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Re: Dual Nationality developments [March 2014]

Postby dan2006 » 17 Dec 2014, 23:54

Mucha Man wrote:
Markova wrote:I don't like the "morally deviant", but I think it's fair to revoke the citizenship of a criminal with dual nationality.

If western countries had such laws, they would be able to lower the criminal rate by a good 50% if not more...


Yeah but it's a criminal act to say fuck you to someone, or merely to block their way for a few seconds.

All this means is that even once you obtained citizenship, any Taiwanese could still have you deported with minimal effort.


Absolutely .. and I'm sure that rule would be abused by those with a grudge.
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Re: Dual Nationality developments [March 2014]

Postby Hokwongwei » 18 Dec 2014, 00:01

Also, Taiwan if the goal is to attract world-class talents... try raising salaries, increasing vacation days, and opening jobs that offer real career paths.
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Re: Dual Nationality developments [March 2014]

Postby Markova » 18 Dec 2014, 00:33

headhonchoII wrote:Citizenship should mean 'rights of a citizen', you are either a citizen for life, or you aren't.


Indeed, you are right. Second class citizenship shouldn't exist.

To avoid European countries' mistakes, I hope taiwan will have higher standard and not simply give away its nationality with the only goal to repopulate its island...
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Re: Dual Nationality developments [March 2014]

Postby Omniloquacious » 18 Dec 2014, 09:40

hannes wrote:I wonder how people react when a foreigner-turned-citizen goes to a polling station to vote. I could imagine someone telling you, in broken English, "You no vote here, OK OK?" :wink:

Actually, many (if not most) Taiwanese assume that foreigners can easily obtain citizenship and ID cards after they’ve lived here for a decade or two. Countless Taiwanese – including many mid-level and senior government officials – have asked me if I have a shenfenzheng, and often express surprise when I answer that I still haven’t. When I explain to them about the renunciation requirement, they invariably shake their heads and agree with me about the unreasonableness of the law and the need to change it. So if I do ever get that ROC ID card, I won’t expect its production to elicit remark or raising of eyebrows from any but a tiny percentage of locals who see it.

greves wrote:I do think they need to change the language & government test. Significantly. It really shouldn't be an unreasonable request to say that a citizen of a given country should be able to explain the basic workings of the government in the language spoken in that country, and for applicants to express things like why they want to become a citizen. Writing should not be required (from a linguists perspective, at least). The US test is oral, and the respondent must actually answer the questions asked, not choose an answer from a bank.

Mr He wrote:Well, there are many ways around the test. If you have studied here, you are extempt. It seems that my old Mandarin Training Centre sessions might prove useful eventually.

They prefer multiple choice here, and that's likely because it's easy to grade, and it is easy to pass if you just sit down and cram it.


The test really is absurdly easy. Anyone with a fairly decent level of proficiency in Chinese (intermediate or above) should sail through it with absolutely no difficulty. When I was going through the naturalization process, I asked the official handling my case if it was really necessary for me to take the test when my employment as a government translator, translating speeches for many government ministers, the premier and vice premier, and even the vice president, should sufficiently demonstrate that I met the required standard of Chinese proficiency. When she hummed and hawed about it, I just said okay, never mind, I’ll take the test. When I completed the test, handed in my paper, and left the test room within five minutes, the invigilator and the couple of dozen Southeast Asian women in there with me probably assumed that it was too hard for the poor Westerner. As it was, I scored 100%, and would have been quite ashamed of myself if I hadn’t.

Indeed, the test has to be kept very simple, because the vast majority of people taking it are Vietnamese and other Southeast Asian girls who are usually from poor families in small villages, have received little or no schooling, and cannot possibly be expected to achieve more than a minimal level of oral proficiency in Chinese, let alone any understanding of the workings of government, but who need to be accorded an easy path to citizenship because they’ve been purchased as brides and daughters-in-law by Taiwanese men/families, and will be required to play an important role in this society as bearers of children to families whose sons have little or no hope of finding local wives, and to provide the extra wombs that government planners recognize as desperately needed to maintain a sufficient birthrate in place of the legions of local women who have understandably decided that they do not want to accept the huge burdens, difficulties and disadvantages of becoming mothers in this overwhelmingly family-unfriendly society.
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Re: Dual Nationality developments [March 2014]

Postby Icon » 18 Dec 2014, 10:00

Hokwongwei wrote:I was livid when I read this report. I spent a good 20-30 minutes lecturing everyone in my office about how the government and lawmakers are working together to create a triple standard in society. You have the real, first class citizens (native born), the second-class citizens (economic migrants who can have their citizenship revoked for breaking laws or being "morally deviant" but can fall back on their other passport), and the third-class citizens (non-economic immigrants who can have their citizenship revoked and be left stateless).

If the constitution actually did that thing it promises about equality, then celebrity chef A-Chi-Shih would be facing statelessness for infidelity.


Exactly. Now, what is the definition of "morally deviant"? How about a single mother? Wearing pants for women or skirts for men? Not cutting your hair or beard? Are they going Taliban, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia like, or merely evangelical Southern Baptist revival?

As to legal issues, as said, it is not the same to be caught, say, trafficking drugs or robbing a bank or stealing from a 7-11, than insult, traffic accident, etc. What they have done here is left the murkiness of a portal open enough to get rid of anyone who stirs up some controversy.

The last woman who was left stateless was because "she was unfaithful to her husband, putting her marriage in doubt and prompting accusations of arranged marriage for prostitution". Interestingly, in such a case, I'd like to see the husband prosecuted too since he must have been on the scam marriage as well. Yet this is the argument that is raised every time. That is why they have that provision for working in a hostess bar -veiled reference to prostitution- and adultery -assuming it is done for money. This was actually a big business, importing "brides" from certain nationalities -Western countries as well- for market reasons. So, the problem is the mafia of agents doing this "business". But it is easier to prosecute "unfaithful" women.

Talking about vengeful, psycho governance!
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Re: Dual Nationality developments [March 2014]

Postby Mucha Man » 18 Dec 2014, 10:47

Everyone focuses on adultery but slander and and infringement of liberty are the more serious and likely crimes a foreigner will be charged with. They are ridiculously easy to "prove": in essence you have to accuse someone. No evidence is needed and when you pay your first visit to the prosecutor you will be encouraged to settle out of court which usually means admitting your guilt but apologizing. It is still uncertain whether this results in a suspended sentence which could lead the immigration department to issue a ban on your re-entry to Taiwan. Taking the matter to trial is supposed to be extremely risky: I have been told there is an 80% conviction rate for these sorts of "crimes."

Anyway, this was in today's TT:

Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) Legislator Yu Mei-nu (尤美女), who proposed one of the draft amendments, blasted Article 3 of the Nationality Act, which requires naturalization applicants to demonstrate that they “behave decently” and have “no criminal record.”

“The last time the committee reviewed the Nationality Act, a ruckus was caused over the phrase ‘behave decently,’ which I consider to be far too abstract,” Yu said. “As for the part about having no criminal record, we all know that in today’s society, people get sued for things such as slander easily.”
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

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Re: Dual Nationality developments [March 2014]

Postby Hokwongwei » 18 Dec 2014, 11:05

The Legislative Yuan, everyone! These are the guys who want to start voting on the prime minister if Taiwan turns to a parliamentary system. :(
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Re: Dual Nationality developments [March 2014]

Postby Mucha Man » 18 Dec 2014, 11:16

In a parliamentary system the PM is voted by his party not the parliament. The leadership wouldn't be much different than it is now. Ma would be PM, or Tsai.

I think Taiwan is better suited to a parliament system as people do not look up to their president as a leader but more as an official. It would also be easier to dissolve parliament, something that could make Taiwan's government more responsive, or alternately, turn it into a disfunctional revolving door of ruling parties and coalitions.
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

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Re: Dual Nationality developments [March 2014]

Postby Mr He » 18 Dec 2014, 12:39

Mucha Man wrote:Everyone focuses on adultery but slander and and infringement of liberty are the more serious and likely crimes a foreigner will be charged with. They are ridiculously easy to "prove": in essence you have to accuse someone. No evidence is needed and when you pay your first visit to the prosecutor you will be encouraged to settle out of court which usually means admitting your guilt but apologizing. It is still uncertain whether this results in a suspended sentence which could lead the immigration department to issue a ban on your re-entry to Taiwan. Taking the matter to trial is supposed to be extremely risky: I have been told there is an 80% conviction rate for these sorts of "crimes."

Anyway, this was in today's TT:

Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) Legislator Yu Mei-nu (尤美女), who proposed one of the draft amendments, blasted Article 3 of the Nationality Act, which requires naturalization applicants to demonstrate that they “behave decently” and have “no criminal record.”

“The last time the committee reviewed the Nationality Act, a ruckus was caused over the phrase ‘behave decently,’ which I consider to be far too abstract,” Yu said. “As for the part about having no criminal record, we all know that in today’s society, people get sued for things such as slander easily.”


All good, let's see what happens. I was accused of this and that during a divorce a few years ago, and did not dare fight any of it as I was afraid that me losing a case would lead to me being deported. How do the recent suggestions brought compare to Hsiao Bi-Khim's draft change to the nationality law basically doing away with article 9 sit with the bit about "special contributions"?

I suspect a tug of war between the MOI and the KMT and the DPP legislators, do anyone know more?
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Re: Dual Nationality developments [March 2014]

Postby Zla'od » 18 Dec 2014, 14:08

Can we get a list of the names of people who opposed this? (Both in the legislature and in the administration)
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