The quest for dual nationality - what's the next step?

Who can and cannot be a dual national, as well as the joys and frustrations accompanying that status. Includes ROC Passport and Military Conscription issues
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The quest for dual nationality - what's the next step?

Postby Spack » 26 Apr 2004, 21:40

About 18 months ago, Richard Hartzell announced that he was going to try to obtain dual nationality. His website, alientw.org, which was born at about the same time, appears to have gone kaput, which is a pity.
However, I understand that Richard is still keen on winning the right to obtain dual nationality for himself and for other foreigners in Taiwan.

If you have any ideas on how to get this issue rolling again, let's hear them.
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Postby Spack » 07 May 2004, 13:29

Well, don't all shout at once! :)

Perhaps there have been no replies because so few people would be interested in getting dual ROC/other nationality.
Is there anyone out there (apart from Richard) who would be interested in getting dual nationality if they were eligibe?
Personally, I'd be content with permanent residency without all the unnecessarily strict requirements, but that's a different topic.

So, dual nationality - any takers?
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Postby jimmy » 07 May 2004, 16:29

I think it is certainly a worthy goal . . . . . and, by the way, in reviewing other postings in this "Dual Nationality and Dual Citizenship" thread, I see that some persons have recommended writing essays to the local (Chinese) newspapers, since these newspapers all have "Readers' Contributions" pages . . . . . and other suggestions such as approaching Legislators and asking that the ROC Nationality Law be amended to recognize "international reciprocity", etc. however I don't see that anyone has taken up with these suggestions . . . . . . so I wonder what is going on in that regard?
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Postby Vannyel » 08 May 2004, 00:53

So can anyone tell me the benefits of dual nationality aside from work related? I have asked before and no one seems willing to point it out. I mean yes we could vote...that's great I guess...and we could come and go as we please but then again if we want to go so much why are we still here....we can already buy more property than we can afford...the taxes would be the same...and yes, if we p*ss off the government they could still revoke our dual citizenship and ship us off...so I don't see where that would help. So what's the point? Fewer trips to the foreign affairs police. Yep that would help, the 15 minutes out of a year I spend there is really wearing me out. Not worrying about a work permit..sure great but then again the 1/3 reduction in salary because I was considered a citizen isn't very appealing. Oh, getting a credit card...now that would be great. The ability to rack up debt in TWO instead of one, a great ambition indeed. Just what the world needs.
Of course, as Jimmy as pointed out elsewhere...Taiwan doesn't exist so why bother? :raspberry:
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Postby Spack » 08 May 2004, 09:52

Vannyel - It's not just the practical benefits; some foreigners have fallen in love with Taiwan and wish to become Taiwanese themselves.

If you are a long-term resident here, 10, 20, 30 or more years, and you have a career, a family, a house, and all kinds of other permanent connections with this de-facto country then dual nationality seems like a logical step.

Some foreigners genuinely love Taiwan and wish to call it their permanent home without being compelled to sever ties with their country of origin.
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Postby Vannyel » 08 May 2004, 14:53

Oh, I get it...the old "have your cake and eat it too while avoiding military service and having the ability to flee if nasty old China attacks" kind of love. Or is it the more conditional kind of love..."yes, baby, I love you but you know if you get fat (or change in anyway I don't like) then I am going back to my first relationship." :notworthy:
Does renouncing your original citizenship keep you from visiting your country of origin? I don't think so. It just means you can't live in Taiwan most of your life and then flee back home to a better health care system when you are getting too old to enjoy life here.
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Postby Spack » 08 May 2004, 21:47

So people want the best of both worlds - or both countries in this case. What's wrong with that? Aren't there plenty of ROC passport holders who also have a US passport? Do you disapprove of them too?

It's interesting you mention military service. My Australian friend was born in Portugal and had the opportunity to obtain dual nationality. The catch was that he needed to do the national service in Portugal in order to get the passport. In the end he decided to stick with the one passport.
AFAIK, any foreign male wanting to obtain an ROC passport has to do military service. Therefore, dual national wannabes would certainly have to do their fair share of push-ups in order to get their cake.
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Postby Bu Lai En » 08 May 2004, 23:21

Vannyel, these days there's loads of people for whom dual citizenship would make life a lot easier. A prime example is mixed couples (one Taiwanese, one form elsewhere). There are very legitimate reasons for having to live for long periods of time on one country, but still be able to change your mind about where you live for hte rest of your life.

the old "have your cake and eat it too while avoiding military service and having the ability to flee if nasty old China attacks" kind of love.


This is a ridiculous argument, especially in light of the fact that Taiwanese are not asked to prove their love for Taiwan by choosing only one citizenship. Nothing stops them having two citizenships.

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Postby Vannyel » 09 May 2004, 14:32

Well Spack...as a matter of fact I do disapprove of ROC citizens that have dual citizenship. I think you should pick a country and stick to it. If you are wealthy enough to be zooming back and forth between countries I hardly think you need to concern yourself with a collection of passports...(I have one Taiwanese friend that has his ROC passport, a British passport, an Australian passport, and a New Zealand passport :roll: )
Actually, since there is no provision for keeping your old citizenship and acquiring ROC citizenship we aren't sure how many pushups anyone would be doing - but it's a safe bet if that was still a requirement a large group of guys would be whinning about that as well. :wink:
Bu Lai En...you said "Vannyel, these days there's loads of people for whom dual citizenship would make life a lot easier. A prime example is mixed couples (one Taiwanese, one form elsewhere)."
I am not exactly sure how this figures into things. As I told Spack, if the couple is wealthy enough to be jet-setting around the globe I think dual citizenship might be the last thing they need to worry about. But then again, I am not a couple so I wouldn't know. :D
And you mentioned, "There are very legitimate reasons for having to live for long periods of time on one country, but still be able to change your mind about where you live for hte rest of your life."
But you failed to give any examples. Sure the desire to work somewhere else for decades, making a lot of cash and then chosing to go back home after it's all over is one. And as I mentioned earlier, running back home to a better health care system is another. :)

And finally, your statement "This is a ridiculous argument, especially in light of the fact that Taiwanese are not asked to prove their love for Taiwan by choosing only one citizenship. Nothing stops them having two citizenships."
Well I find this statement to be ridiculous as well...it's the old "Johnny has new pair of trainers so I should have one too..MOM!" :lol: It unfair but it's the law. This is Taiwan and unfortunately for foreigners the laws aren't clear or fair. But until you surrender your citizenship and attain Taiwanese citizenship it looks like you are stuck being treated unfairly. Of course is there anything stopping you from renouncing your old citizenship, attaining Taiwanese citizenship then going back and retaining your old citizenship?
And in case everyone has missed it in the news recently there have been reports of many countries now rescending naturalized citizens' citizenship for various reasons. Attaining Taiwanese citizenship is no guarantee that you will be able to keep it or have the great expansion of new rights. I am sure if Taiwan does make any changes to the citizenship laws it include more restrictions on what naturalized citizens can and can not do. :cool:
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Postby Spack » 09 May 2004, 14:53

The vast majority of mixed couples in Taiwan are far from wealthy. They probably have modest incomes like me and my Taiwanese wife. We have a son, so for the three of us to travel to and from the UK gets very expensive. We'd like to go back once a year, but it's working out to one trip every two years.
Where do you get this 'wealthy jet-setters' idea from?

As for legitimate reasons to live in Taiwan for a long period, can't you think what they might be?
Take me for example, I have had a job here for twelve years, I own a house, I'm married to a Taiwanese national and I have a Taiwanese son.
My wife can become a British citizen if she wants to, and is not required to give up her ROC passport. It's therefore reasonable to question the rationale behind the ROC government's refusal to allow foreigners to become dual nationals.
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