How to get Taiwan Citizenship - Primer, FAQ, and Resources

Who can and cannot be a dual national, as well as the joys and frustrations accompanying that status. Includes ROC Passport and Military Conscription issues
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Re: How to get Taiwan Citizenship - Primer, FAQ, and Resources

Postby jlick » 04 May 2012, 16:02

speed_maniac wrote:doesn't it seem odd? If, China is a part of Taiwan Area as per the ROC constitution, then I would not be leaving the Taiwan area. It would be the same as going from Taipei to say Taichung....


The Mainland Area is part of the R.O.C., not part of the Taiwan Area. The problem is that most of us come from countries where citizenship implies full residency and other rights for the entire country, so it is hard to comprehend it when in other countries you can be a citizen but have to apply for residency and ID separately.

And I entirely agree that the rules, such as in this situation, can lead to some quite ridiculous snags. I'm just trying to explain how your situation is not the same as Surfer's friend. Whether you agree or not about the mainland being part of the R.O.C., or how citizenship and residency and ID card are separate things, that's the way the laws and regulations are written.
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Re: How to get Taiwan Citizenship - Primer, FAQ, and Resources

Postby Northcoast Surfer » 05 May 2012, 00:51

bismarck wrote:
speed_maniac wrote:It's a bit strange because once you renounce, you have to give up your passport ( at least that was what happened in my case ) so I really don't understand to how the MOI got to know, that the person in question, left Taiwan after getting his CC.

Good point!! So did I.

The plot thickens ... :ponder:


No, no, NO! There are no thickening of any plots! Very straight forward. Here's the less loquacious story.

1. Received Candidature Certificate in early November 2011. Still a US citizen in good standing, passport and all.

2. Went to Malaysia for three or four days in the last week of November 2011.

3. Went to the AIT for the renunciation ceremony on December 5, 2011. Had to give his passport to the Chief of American Citizen Services at the conclusion of the ceremony. Walked out of the AIT, still a US citizen in good standing, no passport.

4. March 15, 2012 - Received notification from the AIT that the renunciation was approved and that he could go and pick it up. The effective date of renunciation was back dated to December 5, 2011. They punched holes in his passport, smiled and said, see ya! He walked out of the AIT as a stateless citizen, with his invalid US passport with holes.

5. He turned in his final naturalization package into the HHRO and two weeks later received a phone call from the HHRO who told him that the MOI is requiring him to provide a new FBI background check because he left Taiwan between receiving his Candidature Certificate and renouncing his citizenship. Remember, he just had to play in that fucking golf tournament in Malaysia! :loco:

As you can see, there are no thick plots. Only a thick MOI!
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Re: How to get Taiwan Citizenship - Primer, FAQ, and Resources

Postby bismarck » 05 May 2012, 08:54

jlick wrote:
speed_maniac wrote:Jlick you do have a point but, if that was the case, they would have allowed me to travel to China after I got my TARC. I did ask them and they said No, you cannot leave Taiwan and that does not include China....so going to China would have been considered leaving Taiwan and going to another country...


TARC is Taiwan Area Resident Certificate, so it's not the same situation. At that point you have citizenship nationality, but not household registration unless you're married, and you have to complete a period of residency in the Taiwan Area in order to get household registration. In other words, the rules for the TARC are that you cannot leave the Taiwan Area without resetting the clock waiting an additional calendar year before being allowed to apply for your ID Card.

That's more accurate.
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Re: How to get Taiwan Citizenship - Primer, FAQ, and Resources

Postby bismarck » 05 May 2012, 08:58

speed_maniac wrote:doesn't it seem odd? If, China is a part of Taiwan Area as per the ROC constitution, then I would not be leaving the Taiwan area. It would be the same as going from Taipei to say Taichung....

Anyway the point is that the MOI cannot demand for a new CRC once you have renounced your original citizenship and already got the letter proving the same. Okay, let's say during the one year stay in Taiwan you contract a serious disease. You did not leave the country. At the time of the final medical exam they diagnosed you with this disease, then what? No Taiwan citizenship?? You followed their laid down rules to the T, if you contracted the disease while in Taiwan then who is to blame, you??

These are some of the fuck ups in their procedure, rules which do not have any logic. The one year rule after getting your TARC is ridiculous when they already have the 5 year rule. The one year rule is for overseas Chinese who already have an ROC passport but want to get an ID card, why should it apply to new immigrants??

No arguments here. Some silly stuff, but hey, you work with what you've got. :idunno:
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Re: How to get Taiwan Citizenship - Primer, FAQ, and Resources

Postby bismarck » 05 May 2012, 09:10

Northcoast Surfer wrote:As you can see, there are no thick plots. Only a thick MOI!

Um, sorry, not trying to be mean, but your friend was actually the "thick" one here. At least "the one who didn't check the rules before he leapt".

Northcoast Surfer wrote:
bismarck wrote:
speed_maniac wrote:It's a bit strange because once you renounce, you have to give up your passport ( at least that was what happened in my case ) so I really don't understand to how the MOI got to know, that the person in question, left Taiwan after getting his CC.

Good point!! So did I.

The plot thickens ... :ponder:


No, no, NO! There are no thickening of any plots! Very straight forward. Here's the less loquacious story.

1. Received Candidature Certificate in early November 2011. Still a US citizen in good standing, passport and all.

2. Went to Malaysia for three or four days in the last week of November 2011.

Might be a stupid rule, but it is a rule. He shouldn't have left until he already had his TARC. But then he would have needed to wait 2 years, not just 1, so let's hope he at least follows this rule, or else we're going to be hearing about how thick the MOI is to have that rule once he gets his TARC and then goes off to some out of Taiwan place for a spot of tiddlywinks next.

I mean, seriously, NCS. If I've learned anything from you over the last few years it's this:
1. Always check the law/rules.
2. Judiciously stick within their confines, as stupid as they may seem to you (general you, not you per se).
I'm surprised that with having a mate as well versed in these things as you this guy didn't check with you first!! I'm pretty sue if he had told you, "Hey, NCS! Question, mate! I recently got my Candidature Certificate, but I haven't renounced yet and want to play a round of golf in Malaysia. Is it all good, or what?" you would have a. cautioned him against it, and/or b. advised him to check with the MOI first regarding any repercussions, especially re CRC etc.

Be that as it may, he now has two courses of action:
1. Reapply for an FBI check. Proceed as normal.
2. Dick them around and risk raising the ire of some middling government bureaucrat.
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Second of all, as in all honeymoons, all is well until it is not. It is until the unexpected happens that you will see all grievances surface -ask anyone in any relationship. The girl can chew with her mouth open, that if you love her, you do not care. If you do not lover her, if her pinkie toe is half an inch deviant, the relationship is doomed. - Icon
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Re: How to get Taiwan citizenship--primer, FAQ and resources.

Postby Northcoast Surfer » 15 Jun 2012, 20:14

UNBELIEVABLE - An acceptable conclusion!!

1. I ended up filing for another US background check for my client and sending the request off to FBI headquarters in the States.

2. I finally badgered my client's household registration office into divulging the name and phone number of the M.O.I. official who had made the determination that my client was required to provide yet another FBI background check although he had already renounced his US citizenship. They really didn't want to give it to me and they tried to avoid it at all costs. Wow, talk about trying to protect their own governmental colleagues from scrutiny!

3. I went to the M.O.I., stood in the lobby and dialed the phone number for the specific official. After a short explanation, she agreed to meet me face to face. I was actually surprised about this. I politely and professionally plead my client's case to her.

a. I showed her my client's passport which clearly showed the exit and entry dates of Taiwan and also the entry and exit dates of Malaysia. I confirmed that my client had exited Taiwan, went to Malaysia for 3 days, and then immediately returned to Taiwan. I had 100% clear evidence of his whereabouts during his extremely brief absence from Taiwan. He never entered the United States or any territories of the United States. Therefore, an additional US FBI background check is unnecessary.

b. I explained to her that if my client had been under any type of criminal investigation or facing any criminal charges within the United States, that he wouldn't have been afforded the right to renounce his citizenship. Because the United States authorized and approved his renunciation of US citizenship, they are directly saying that he's is not facing any criminal charges within the United States. I told her that I would give her the direct phone line for the head honcho of the American Citizen Services at the AIT, who would be more than happy to confirm this. Therefore, an additional US FBI background check is unnecessary.

c. I explained to her that my client is no longer qualified to request an FBI background check as he is no longer a citizen or a permanent resident of the United States of America and that the FBI will not do background checks for non-citizens/non residents. Therefore, an additional US FBI background check is unnecessary and ultimately unavailable to him. (Total fabrication. The FBI will do background checks on anyone, citizen/resident or not.)

4. Unsurprisingly, she wasn't very receptive to any of my arguments. (Taiwanese shoebox mentality) So, I cautioned her that if she didn't agree to allow my client's naturalization package to pass without an additional and unnecessary FBI background check that I would go to ANY length necessary to have her overruled. In order for her to avoid any public embarrassment, humiliation and loss of face, I strongly urged her to "do the right thing". She then told me that she would have to ask her immediate supervisor and consult with him and that within two days she would phone me with the decision. I thanked her for seeing me and spending time hearing my argument regarding my client's naturalization package and then I left.

5. Three days later I received a phone call from her. The answer was still, "No". So, I again suggested that she and her supervisor reconsider or I would take stronger action in order to serve my client's interests. I clearly told her that I wasn't going to go away. She basically told me to "have at it" and do my worst. "Bring it!"

6. So, I brought it. I decided to pull out my "guanxi" club, which I keep next to the putter in my golf bag. I went to the office of a DPP legislator whom I know very well and told him the story. When the meeting was finished, he assured me that he would square everything away and that my client's paperwork would be accepted within the week and without requiring a new and unnecessary FBI background check.

7. Four days later, my client got a phone call from his household registration office informing him that his package had been returned..........wait for it.........APPROVED!!

8. My client took his naturalization certificate and associated paperwork to the NIA, did the final paperwork and is now currently serving his one-year TARC prison sentence, which also is stupid and unnecessary. However, I do not plan to contest this issue, yet. :lol:

9. In a few months I will receive a nice, new, shiny, worthless FBI background check which I will simply put into the filing cabinet with the rest of my client's casework.

=========================================================================

I would like to express the following sentiments:

To the DPP legislator who unscrewed this problem: Thank you very much! Now, I owe you a favor and I won't forget it! :notworthy:

To the M.O.I. official who initially rejected my client's paperwork and was overruled: Ha, told you so! 活該! :no-no:

To my fellow Forumosans: Take note. There is more than one way to combat the unreasonable Taiwanese shoebox mentality which permeates every facet of society on this island. The answer is only NO if you end up giving up and decide to accept it.

Taiwan Naturalization Certificate - APPROVED!

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Northcoast Surfer wrote:******************IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENTS******************

According to the M.O.I., if you leave Taiwan ANY TIME AFTER you receive your Candidature Certificate, you MUST do another criminal record check from your home country. :loco: Really. No shit.

Case in point: US citizen

1. He applies for naturalization at his local HHRO. Language exam 100%, residency requirements met, monetary requirements met, health requirements met, Taiwan CCRD passed, FBI criminal record check passed, etc. etc. ad nauseum!

2. He is approved by the M.O.I. for candidature and receives his happy lappy Candidature Certificate which states that he's got 2 years from the Candidature Certificate date in which to renounce his US citizenship, return to the HHRO with the official renunciation document to "complete" the naturalization process. Not really complete because as we all know too well that just turns into the STUPID T.A.R.C. prison sentence. But anyway, I digress....

3. He is invited to Malaysia to play golf in an invitational tournament. So, before he goes to the AIT to renounce his citizenship, he takes a three day trip to Malaysia to play in this tournament. He then returns to Taiwan.

4. He goes to the AIT, and jumps through ALL the rings of fire and renounces his US citizenship. He gets the renunciation certificate all authenticated and chopped and stamped and legalized and etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum! He's stateless at this time. No citizenship.

5. He goes back to the NIA in Banqiao to get an updated Certificate of Residency and then with both the renunciation document and the Certificate of Residency heads back to his local HHRO to submit the "final" package with new pictures and the postal money order, etc. etc. HHRO accepted his package and told him the wait would be about one month until he receives his approval certificate with which he will need to head back to the Banqiao NIA to begin the T.A.R.C. period.

6. Two weeks elapse by and today 4-30-2012 he gets a phone call from the HHRO who tells him that the M.O.I. has said that because he left Taiwan for those three days to play golf that he now needs to provide a new US FBI background check in order for them to process his paperwork! You see, their reasoning is that he was still a US citizen at the time he traveled to Malaysia and hadn't renounced US citizenship, yet. Are you fucking kidding me!?!?!??!?!

So, here we have John Q non-citizen of any frickin' country who did everything he was told and now is told that he needs to provide yet another FBI background check because he left Taiwan after he received his Candidature Certificate. WTF!?!?! :fume:

Image

I'm in the process of doing another FBI background check right now which of course as we all know is a MAJOR TIME CONSUMING PAIN IN THE ASS!

1. Go to Banqiao NIA, have fingerprints taken.
2. DHL the FBI application with fingerprints to WADC.
3. Wait up to 3 months to get the completed check back.
4. Translate into Chinese.
5. Send original and translation to the TECRO in DC for authentication.
6. Have TECRO send it back to Taiwan.
7. Submit it to the HHRO who will in turn send it to those assholes in the M.O.I.

Has anyone else experienced this absolutely stupid turn of events? Has anyone else heard anything about what this former US citizen is now faced with? I mean...come on....he's not even a US citizen anymore. He's a stateless individual who is about to request an FBI background check from the United States in order to satisfy the stupid Taiwanese bureaucracy! I wonder how this is going to fly.

===========================================================================================

So, according to the M.O.I., once you have received your Candidature Certificate you have two years from the date it was issued in which to renounce your citizenship and take the next baby steps toward citizenship. However, you MUST NOT leave Taiwan from the day you receive your Candidature Certificate or else you will be required to provide a new criminal background check from your home country! Which if done after you renounce your citizenship AIN'T YOUR COUNTRY NO MORE BECAUSE YOU'RE NOW STATELESS BITCH!! :loco:

This post was recommended by 3 Forumosans: Icon (16 Jun 2012, 13:52), jimipresley (15 Jun 2012, 20:24), Omniloquacious (16 Jun 2012, 12:27)
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Re: How to get Taiwan Citizenship - Primer, FAQ, and Resources

Postby bismarck » 29 Jun 2012, 11:44

Is it just me, or is this thread a whole lot shorter than it used to be? What happened to the other 50 odd pages?
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Second of all, as in all honeymoons, all is well until it is not. It is until the unexpected happens that you will see all grievances surface -ask anyone in any relationship. The girl can chew with her mouth open, that if you love her, you do not care. If you do not lover her, if her pinkie toe is half an inch deviant, the relationship is doomed. - Icon
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Re: How to get Taiwan Citizenship - Primer, FAQ, and Resources

Postby scomargo » 29 Jun 2012, 11:48

each page now has 20 posts instead of 10. I think that goes for the whole site, but I'm not entirely sure.
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Re: How to get Taiwan Citizenship - Primer, FAQ, and Resources

Postby bismarck » 30 Jun 2012, 13:56

Ok, so I have 20 days before I can walk into my Household registration office and apply for my long awaited ID Card. I want to get everything done that needs to be done starting Monday. So, besides the Health Certificate, what else and in what order would be most expedient?
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Second of all, as in all honeymoons, all is well until it is not. It is until the unexpected happens that you will see all grievances surface -ask anyone in any relationship. The girl can chew with her mouth open, that if you love her, you do not care. If you do not lover her, if her pinkie toe is half an inch deviant, the relationship is doomed. - Icon
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Re: How to get Taiwan Citizenship - Primer, FAQ, and Resources

Postby speed_maniac » 02 Jul 2012, 13:55

Congrats Bis......check PK's post on page 49....
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