Military duty

[cfimages]

I've no idea what the point of that was bismarck.

[bismarck]

I am older than you and the same goes in my life:
"Did you finish army service? "
"Are you married? You need to marry and have some boys to continue your family lineage, to honour your family, etc etc , to prove that you are a man"

No worries. I think you've answered that question long ago.

In other countries you have the peer pressure, here we have family pressure, we need to do a lot of things that we don't believe just to prove our "worth".
And I tell all of them: "Mind you business, I may need to do army service, marry, but I am in no hurry"

Now that is the understatement of the year!

There were times that I wished to be born in other countries, in Western countries you don't draft the people to the army, you don't force someone to get married, you have choices, here in Taiwan, do it or you are a disgrace to our country and to your family.
I for once am swimming against the tide, I am not ashamed and no one is going to put me down.

Yeah, but they forgot to tell you in the "Dream of living in western country" brochure that certain things that guys here think are socially acceptable will get the snot kicked out of you in second break.
Think Taiwanese conscription is tough? You would've loved high school in a western country.

What if I ran away, never serve the army or never get married ? Inside I feel great and that is what really bloody matters

But aren't you basically doing that already? IMHO you're not manning up on anything. It's all good and well to take a moral stand on conscription, but there are alternatives to serving in the military (which has been noted several times on this thread alone). And you keep harping on about marriage, so I take it you're either into an alternative lifestyle or a confirmed bachelor, which is all good, but besides it being a personal problem, perhaps you'd serve yourself better if you manned up there to and told your parents to back the f*** off, you're a man and you'll live your own damn life as you see fit (without having to run away or other such malarky). And although this may seem harsh, think about it: It's pretty hard to take a guy seriously as a man if he doesn't act like one (which, btw, has nothing to do with serving in the military).

[bismarck]

I've no idea what the point of that was bismarck.

No surprise there.

[cfimages]

I've no idea what the point of that was bismarck.

No surprise there.

I'm not sure what relevance those photos have to the discussion at hand. Posting photos of mushroom clouds, dead/wounded bodies and celebrations by the victors is simply gloating and seeing others as less than human, or less worthy of living. I dearly hope your sense of manhood is not formed by those images in any way - if so I pity you.

EDIT - You do realise that if the Japanese and German conscripts of the 1930s had have refused to serve, there may not have even been a WW2.

[bismarck]

I've no idea what the point of that was bismarck.

No surprise there.

I'm not sure what relevance those photos have to the discussion at hand. Posting photos of mushroom clouds, dead/wounded bodies and celebrations by the victors is simply gloating and seeing others as less than human, or less worthy of living. I dearly hope your sense of manhood is not formed by those images in any way - if so I pity you.

Aiyou! The point was: You said they would rather have been at home. I said, by 1945 you're probably right. Or, without soldiers, the Germans and Japanese would've run all over Europe and the Pacific, but due to many brave souls who put their lives on hold and lived in the most horrific conditions for several years (most of which never mad it home) we have the freedoms we enjoy today.

My sense of manhood has nothing to do with this thread, war or military service. It has to do with values I was taught by my parents and trying to be a good husband and father.

EDIT - You do realise that if the Japanese and German conscripts of the 1930s had have refused to serve, there may not have even been a WW2.

Yes, you're right, and then para-military and military groups close to their respective dictators would've shot the hell out of them. There would've been a WWII regardless. The vast majority of those soldiers were more than happy to fight for the "glory" of the Fuhrer and the Emperor. It simply wouldn't have been possible to have the military success they initially had if the soldiers weren't motivated and morale was low.

Now if you can find a way to do away with crooked politicians (eager to wage war for profit) and ultra nationalism, then I'd be all ears and your worldview might actually be practical.

To be clear, I share your point of view that the world would be better off without things like conscription, nuclear weapons and war. But that's not the reality of the world we live in, nor a view shared by many countries (or at least the maniacs running them). It seems so simple a solution that we all just get along, that the PRC just let Taiwan go along it's merry way, the North and South Korea join up and live together in peace, that various tribes within national borders in Africa respect each other enough to live together peacefully and that everyone just respect each others beliefs, trade fairly and live peacefully.
But simple as it may seem, it's not reality. And running away from something out of cowardice instead of doing something concrete about it is not a solution either. It's one thing to refuse to be conscripted (I personally would've done anything in my power not to be conscripted into the old Apartheid SADF to fight a bullshit war against Angolans and Cubans that had nothing to do with me, but to suit the purposes of a racist government), but is it still acceptable that others do so? How is that being "nobler" than politicians who make conscription laws and pack their punk kids off to foreign countries to avoid the very laws they enforce on others?

If the majority of young men really don't want to be conscripted, they'd serve themselves (and actually lend legitimacy to their "principles" instead of looking like mommy's boys) much better to organize and demonstrate and follow several other lines of "peaceful" methods to force the government to bend to the will of the majority. But I don't see thousands of conscripts burning their call up cards, walking the streets demonstrating against conscription or having sit downs. They either go and serve or bitch about how unfair their lives are.
Or perhaps, the majority of young men don't see anything wrong with a year's stint in the army, or perhaps they don't see it as that bad that they're actually willing to organize and kick up a stink about it.

[lotzuni]

Until you have been in a real war, fought face to face with the enemy, don't brag. Less than an year in the army doesn't make you more man than the others. If being a soldier is so imoprtant go to Iraq instyead of being here in Taiwan hiding as a buxiban laoban. Besides, dogs that bark rarely bite, so Bismack, fall from your high horse. You never been in a real war!

[TainanCowboy]

I've no idea what the point of that was bismarck.

Cfi -
Yes...yes I think you do know what that was about. I seem to remember you posting quite knowledgeably about your serving at a service club back in Australia. If I remember correctly, you spoke well about the gents in the club, former Diggers all.

So I do think you know what Bismarck is talking about.

====
lotzuni -

IMO, based on what you've posted, are best off never getting close to military service. I pity anyone who would be in service with you should they actually have to depend on you to do something that required a conscientious effort. That appears to be beyond the scope of your abilities. It is people who express opinions such as you do who make it damn clear that Taiwan is not worth a single solitary expenditure by any allied force to save should the flag go up and the PRC decide to waltz over here and restore their brand of order to the island.
The current US mil intel belief is that less than 25% of the current military would actually fight for longer than 12 hours shoud the PRC/PLA attack here.
IMO, that about 10 hours too long. The sad fact is that there are good soldiers here who would make the ultimate sacrifice for their country. But they are in the small minority. These troopers will be sold-out by worthless mommas boys who piss and moan about not having their Hello Kitty pajamas and mommas wipe their sorry asses at night rather than grow up and do their duty for their country.
Their are things more larger in context than self. Ideas that give richness and worth to ones life. It is apparent that you, and a lot of other Taiwanese(and others) have no ability to understand things such as this.
You say you are "not ashamed." How can you be "ashamed"?
You have no concept of what personal shame is all about. That concept, personal shame, along with accountability and responsibility has been bred out of your psyche. You're not the only one here like this. Just another glaring example who is all too quick to confess it without a clue.

Its all about you isn't it? All about you.

[Buttercup]

Do any of you think Tibet is worth fighting for? Not really asking the question from any 'angle'. Just wondering what people think. The Dalai Lama is fighting in his own way, I guess. But Tibet will be entirely eradicated in a couple of generations.

Personally, I'm pretty glad that there were a bunch of conscripts that fought in the second world war. My company has a memorial service every year, and former employees come to lay poppy wreaths on our memorial. We give those guys some respect.

Yet there is also Britto/Yankish arsewittery that has one of my childhood pals fixing trucks in Afghanistan at the moment.

It's also odd how anti-military people often support extra judicial murder/assassination of heads of state. Really don't understand that one.

[lotzuni]

I've no idea what the point of that was bismarck.

Cfi -
Yes...yes I think you do know what that was about. I seem to remember you posting quite knowledgeably about your serving at a service club back in Australia. If I remember correctly, you spoke well about the gents in the club, former Diggers all.

So I do think you know what Bismarck is talking about.

====
lotzuni -

IMO, based on what you've posted, are best off never getting close to military service. I pity anyone who would be in service with you should they actually have to depend on you to do something that required a conscientious effort. That appears to be beyond the scope of your abilities. It is people who express opinions such as you do who make it damn clear that Taiwan is not worth a single solitary expenditure by any allied force to save should the flag go up and the PRC decide to waltz over here and restore their brand of order to the island.
The current US mil intel belief is that less than 25% of the current military would actually fight for longer than 12 hours shoud the PRC/PLA attack here.
IMO, that about 10 hours too long. The sad fact is that there are good soldiers here who would make the ultimate sacrifice for their country. But they are in the small minority. These troopers will be sold-out by worthless mommas boys who piss and moan about not having their Hello Kitty pajamas and mommas wipe their sorry asses at night rather than grow up and do their duty for their country.
Their are things more larger in context than self. Ideas that give richness and worth to ones life. It is apparent that you, and a lot of other Taiwanese(and others) have no ability to understand things such as this.
You say you are "not ashamed." How can you be "ashamed"?
You have no concept of what personal shame is all about. That concept, personal shame, along with accountability and responsibility has been bred out of your psyche. You're not the only one here like this. Just another glaring example who is all too quick to confess it without a clue.

Its all about you isn't it? All about you.

All this criticism means nothing if you're here in Taiwan. You are not participating in the war either, fighting with your fellow men in Iraq are you ? You are watching the war from afar. Doing nothing and brag about manhood stuff and calling me selfish.

[TainanCowboy]

All this criticism means nothing if you're here in Taiwan. You are not participating in the war either, fighting with your fellow men in Iraq are you ? You are watching the war from afar. Doing nothing and brag about manhood stuff and calling me selfish.

lotzuni -
Yea, I am in Taiwan. However, I have done my time in the military and beyond. And that time included a "real war" and several more that had all the accouterments of war.
Don't be so fast with your fingers in trying to disparage the experiences of other to justify your own short-comings. You're just digging yourself in deeper.