Military duty

Who can and cannot be a dual national, as well as the joys and frustrations accompanying that status. Includes ROC Passport and Military Conscription issues
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Re: Military duty

Postby sandman » 19 Mar 2009, 21:22

Buttercup wrote:Would you defend Taiwan?

If those bumbling arseclowns they call a "government" told me to? What do YOU think? :lol:
If some hicks -- Taiwanese, Chinese or Weedgie -- came a-banging on my casement window bent on malfeasance? I'd fuck their shit up, and the shit of their nearest and dearest if I could.
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Re: Military duty

Postby taichungdoug » 19 Mar 2009, 22:10

sandman wrote:
Buttercup wrote:Would you defend Taiwan?

If those bumbling arseclowns they call a "government" told me to? What do YOU think? :lol:
If some hicks -- Taiwanese, Chinese or Weedgie -- came a-banging on my casement window bent on malfeasance? I'd fuck their shit up, and the shit of their nearest and dearest if I could.


If you notice, most of this chinese guy's posts make mention to CBS and Taiwan politicians. I don't consider him a coward. I will never serve in an army if my president was CBS (he is totally nuts). If CBS wants to foment a war to China, he can go there by himself and take his son together and fight alone. I will support any guy who avoided army in the past 8 years during that crazy man's leadership.
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Re: Military duty

Postby bismarck » 19 Mar 2009, 23:04

lotzuni wrote:
TainanCowboy wrote:
lotzuni wrote:All this criticism means nothing if you're here in Taiwan. You are not participating in the war either, fighting with your fellow men in Iraq are you ? You are watching the war from afar. Doing nothing and brag about manhood stuff and calling me selfish.

lotzuni -
Yea, I am in Taiwan. However, I have done my time in the military and beyond. And that time included a "real war" and several more that had all the accouterments of war.
Don't be so fast with your fingers in trying to disparage the experiences of other to justify your own short-comings. You're just digging yourself in deeper.


You know, posting old war pictures in the web while a real war is still going on in your country and the world,

There's a war going on in my country? Really? First I've heard of it.

lotzuni wrote: and wasting your time in front of the computer exchanging a discussion war of thoughts in the comfort of your room with AC

Nope. Air conditioner's not on either...

lotzuni wrote: doesn't make me believe you really care about serving your country.

Well, I don't regard the opinions of draft dodgers very highly anyway. And apart from that, I served my country for six years, patrolled up and down both our coastlines on surface vessels and submarines, served in a peace enforcement role in two combat theaters and did various other things such as voter registration and volunteer fire-fighting in a military and non military capacity.
Not sure how you define "serving your country", but I think I went above and beyond the call of duty. Partly because I love my country and partly because I felt I came from a privileged background and wanted to give something back.

Edit: To be clear. "Giving something back" need not entail joining the military.

lotzuni wrote:Criticize if you want,

I believe I've given ample opinion on the subject already, but here's one more. You came here somehow looking for acceptance for dodging the draft (when your peers and family obviously haven't given it), and although some applaud you, you're surprised that veterans don't.

lotzuni wrote: but here in Taiwan right now we are doing the same, just exchanging words,

Although, the vast majority have already or will sometime in the future go and do what your law requires of them. Many of us here already have, either in Taiwan or abroad.

lotzuni wrote: you lecture about the rampant violence out there but you are still here, you are not doing much either,

:roll: I can honestly say that I've done my part, and I've done a sight more for my country, and in fact, my region, than the likes of you probably ever will. Let me ask you this. Have you even ever done any form of volunteer work? Helped out at an old age center, volunteer fire fighting? I suspect most foreigners on this board have given back more to this country, its people or its animals than you ever have or are likely to do.

lotzuni wrote: and the war is an outgoing on there

Where?

lotzuni wrote: while China and Taiwan are still in peaceful terms.

Are you even Taiwanese? Did you go to school at all? Legally Taiwan and China are still in a state of war.

cfimages wrote:A war such as WW2, where global freedoms were at stake, is an exception.

Good point. As such it was probably a poor example.

Buttercup wrote:Would you defend Taiwan?

If I was a citizen, and if necessary? Yes.

Ibksig wrote:That aside, you may not have to worry much longer. According to Defense Minister Chen Chao-min, Taiwan is supposed to be phasing out conscription in the next 5 years with the end in 2014.

At which point he'll still be a sprightly 37 year old and ready to start off his career with all the other....um...22 year olds.
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Re: Military duty

Postby sandman » 19 Mar 2009, 23:12

If I was a citizen, and if necessary? Yes.

That's the whole point, though. You're relying on fuckwads to tell you it's necessary and they can do nasty shit to you if you happen to disagree with them.
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Re: Military duty

Postby Satellite TV » 20 Mar 2009, 01:35

cfimages wrote: Forcing people to join to military just because of the country they happen to be born in, or the era, is just plain wrong, morally and ethically, and as such, those who avoid the service should be encouraged.

A war such as WW2, where global freedoms were at stake, is an exception. The vast majority of wars throughout history have been unneccessary, and certainly no wars that have been fought since have been necessary, no matter how the media and politicians like to spin them.


So if Australia was invaded by Indonesia, you wouldnt fight even if drafted? After all it's not for global freedom is it? Maybe just a few mineral rights instead. You would be willing to give up your freedoms and posessions due to not wanting to fight for your own country you were born and raised in?

You can say all wars are unecessary. But it is human nature to go to war. Ther will always be wars, like it or not.

The Australian military does more than just fight wars. It provides the very security and freedoms Australian expect to have. The military also performs rescue missions, helps rebuild war torn countries, and can also be used to help when natural disasters strike.

There is more to being a soldier than being asked to kill people. Just ask my first cousin... google his name... Michael Edstein... you will see his Australian military service... ongoing. He has killed thousands of the enemy.

He details in the picture link below.

http://www.defence.gov.au/health/infoce ... _12-16.pdf

My parents and his parents met in Japan when the Allies occupied Japan. His mother is Japanese. His father lied about his age to join the Army during WW2, and also served in Korea. My father was a former sniper instructor and well as a building engneer. My father youngest brother joined the military and served as a chopper pilot in Korea and Vietnam ( shot down himself on a rescue mission ) , and went on to serve in Diplomatic Securty for Australian Embassies abroad. He and I sometimes had problems getting paid as we have the same initials and both for in Dept Foreign Affairs at the same time.

My mothers father was a POW officer taken to Japan duing the war. He died of radiation illness. We all know what brought that on, altough he didnt die for sometime after the war ended and is buried in the War Cemetary in Yokohama.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_det ... 433&mode=1

The OP has plenty of options to complete his service requirements without having to serve in the amry as a soldier. There are provisions for those who do not with to be tin soldiers to perform other duties in a civilian manner.

Serving your country is not a privilege ... it's your duty if required. My cousin does his... got his ertiary education to PHd in the process and is a leading world expert in his field... all done on Army time and money.
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Re: Military duty

Postby cfimages » 20 Mar 2009, 08:08

Sat TV - No, I wouldn't. Other than the fact that it could never really happen (an Indo invasion, that is), I don't subscribe to that duty not privilege notion. Why should I, and others, be required to fight because the leaders fucked up somewhere along the way? Sorry, but the idea that someone has a duty in that sense is one of the biggest lies ever perpetuated.
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Re: Military duty

Postby TainanCowboy » 20 Mar 2009, 08:36

TainanCowboy wrote:Lotzuni -
It would appear that you have run out of coherent responses to support your position.
The point is, you are seeking to justify personal selfishness and cowardice by claiming that it is a position of reason and intellect. Your premise is flawed. While it may be the norm among many here in Taiwan, which is the country under discussion, it is still a flawed view in regards to the betterment of the country. To perpetuate and maintain such a skewered view point degrades the reasoning ability and personal responsibility and accountability of the entire populace.
If done long enough, you have...well...you have an entire country believing that "Its not may baby" should be the national motto.

Wait one!...thats what we have now....darned if it didn't come true.
lotzuni wrote:OK if you consider me a coward for not having served the army yet, be it.
Ok...so be it. Play the victim all you want - YOU are the one coming on here looking for advice on how to avoid doing your required national service. As has been mentioned, national service includes work other than just the military. A gentleman I know did his service working at the middle school my son attends. Now ask the question - "TainanCowboy, do you consider this man a 'coward'?
My answer is NO. I certainly do not. He did his national service in a very honorable manner. He did not shirk or avoid his responsibility as a Taiwan citizen.
lotzuni wrote:Your opinion is very mean and rude.
Yeah...so what? Its my opinion. Maybe you just want it to be "mean and rude" to fit your dialogue. You ask for opinions...you get opinions. Deal with it like an adult.
lotzuni wrote:In your country people can choose to go or not to the army,, here we are drafted. Will you call your fellow men who didn't volunteer in the army as coward?
Depends on the person and their situation. The key word is volunteer. Thats a personal choice.
Now guess what - Back in the day, I was drafted into the US Army. Understand that? 1968. Did it cross my mind to not follow through with it? Yes, of course it did. As did many other options. But it was my choice to accept it, deal with it and do the best I could. So sorry, your scheme is 'less than honorable' in my opinion.
lotzuni wrote:Then there are millions there, you don't need to call the guys here cowards.
What? I'm talking to you. Not some mythical create of "guys."
lotzuni wrote: And how about you, here in Taiwan all these years during your country's war,
I'm past age for service in my countries military. Quite a bit past the cut-off.
lotzuni wrote:"...come here and call me coward
Based on your comments, you're playing this for all you can aren't you?
lotzuni wrote:"... but in my mind the word about people who lecture others for not doing something that he is also not doing is Hypocrite
See my previous comment re:my age. Kinda nils out your argument.
How about looking into a non-military form of national service? Sounds like it would do you some good.
Remember my previous comment.
It might not be a good idea if someone had to depend on you if things got....uncomfortable.

But really, one never knows. Some people respond with valor and ability they never imagined they possessed. You might be one of them.
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Re: Military duty

Postby taichungdoug » 20 Mar 2009, 09:09

Some of my chinese colleagues did the army service at their 20s, some didn't, one couldn't serve because he has flat feet so he is exempt, one call anyone coward. Something that I like about chinese peoples. The government here allows its citizen to serve the army even at their 40's, some young men left high school and decided to serve the army earlier because they didn't know whatever else to do, were trying to find themselves or have some family problems and were trying to escape and decided to spend time doing the army. I don't know why everybody is criticizing the chinese man for not serving the army at his age ? The government here allows people to serve at their most convenient time, so who are you to come out and call the man coward? In my country the government allows citizen to volunteer. Who is going to point finger and criticize the ones who decided to not go to the army. Who gave you the right to criticize a person or call him coward just because he is past 30's and still didn't serve the army? Would you think that someone who did the army at 22 is better and more brave than someone who did it at 26? What age has to do with that? Let the man decide when he is going to serve, it is his right to decide what to do with his own life and destiny. The age comparisons are nasty and childish.
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Re: Military duty

Postby TainanCowboy » 20 Mar 2009, 14:50

taichungdoug -
Please go back over the thread and read the exact wording about "coward/cowardice" and how it was applied to Lotzuni.

I'm not really sure what your point is with the rest of your post.
Its rather hard for me to read. I would prefer to be certain what you are trying to say or ask in order to respond correctly.
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Re: Military duty

Postby taichungdoug » 20 Mar 2009, 15:09

I've been talking with my colleagues (chinese) about this thread, and ask them if a man in his 30's who didn't serve the army would be considered a coward among the men in their society. They simply asked me if he had a job, a decent job, if so, no one will talk about him. He would not lose face. They consider having a job, more important. As long as he has a good one, serving the army is not a big deal in Taiwan. It seems that some men without jobs are also hiding in the military to have some face and not to be considered useless. As long as you have some occupation, no one can call you anything here in Taiwan. They don't consider the postponement of army service as a lack of virtue or bravery, but if you gamble, do drugs, then this is a serious problem in your life.
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