Getting kicked out - HELP!!!!

Work Permits, Employment Qualifications, Employer Problems
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Getting kicked out - HELP!!!!

Postby spunkymonkey » 13 Sep 2005, 22:31

I was working in a buxiban marking exam papers 3 months ago. The place was raided by the foreign affairs police and I was taken to the police station to be interviewed. The cousin of the owner of the buxiban came with me to act as an interpretor. We told the police that I was just visiting a friend and that he asked me to help but i didn't receive any payment. At the end of the interview both the police chief and the owners cousin told me there was no problem and that it would all go away.

I quit the school shortly after this and recently started working in another school who applied for and got me an ARC. Today i recieved a letter from the police saying that I have 14 days to leave Taiwan because of the problem in the buxiban that happened 3 months ago.

Is there anything I can do? Can i appeal the decision? It seems really weird that between my visit to the copshop and now I've been able to leave taiwan for a visa run and get an ARC without any problems then all of a sudden I'm getting kicked out the country.

I'd really appreciate any help anyone can give me.

Cheers.
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Postby xtrain » 13 Sep 2005, 23:40

did you quit the original school on good terms? if not, they may well have turned you in after the fact ...
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Postby Limey » 14 Sep 2005, 08:59

Try this guy out. Send him a Private message at Forumosa. He may be able to help.

ML Mclean

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Postby spunkymonkey » 14 Sep 2005, 12:12

I left on good terms with the school. I went back to see them about it and they have been fined 150,000NT so I don't think they'd have tried to screw me.
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Postby brian » 14 Sep 2005, 15:53

This is the second report that I have heard of this.

Someone gets busted for working illegally. Everything seems okay and then months later they get deported.

It seems that the police may be taking a harder line on all of this. Why they don't do it at the time you are actually caught is beyond me, but it does seem that it may be a good time to remind people to ensure that they are legal.

I agree with another poster. Speak with the guys at ML McLean. They may know something about this.
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Postby ML McLean » 15 Sep 2005, 03:17

Thanks all. In touch with OP. There seems to be no appeal process and that decisions by NPA are final. Will look into this as quickly as possible given the 14 days notice.

On our to-do-list is to better understand this issue given that we understand the Taipei City departments are becoming stricter going forward. Hope to have some more insight into this for the community over the next few weeks.

On a side note, our office is currently moving but will still be in the Zhonghe/Yong'an Market MRT area. All other contact information remains the same:
Email: immigration at ml-mclean.com or info at ml-mclean.com
Phone: 02-6620-5062 / 02-6620-5251
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Postby ML McLean » 21 Sep 2005, 14:33

Maybe the following can be a sticky or put someplace prominently. We'll try to get something on our website about this as soon as we can.

I'd like to summarize some of the conversations I've had with the Taipei City NPA FAP folks about these working and deportation issues.

1. No appeal on deportation decisions. The Taipei police are simply going by the book on these cases. So when they make their raids, they basically see what kind of documentation you have for being in Taiwan and compare that with what you're doing at the time you were found by the police.

2. Illegally working. What does that mean? The basic rule that the FAP follow is, are you doing what your visa in Taiwan says you're supposed to be doing?

If you are on a visitor's visa, you have no business being in a school, unless you can show that the school has processed or is processing your work permit papers. If the school cannot show the police this paperwork, you are out of luck and you will be busted for illegally working on a visitor's visa. A visitor's visa is for "tourist" purposes.

If you are on a student visa, you should be in a school learning what you're supposed to be learning. You have no business near a school unless you can show that you have business there on invitation, permission by the school and the school can show paperwork to that effect.

If you have a work ARC for say Hess Shilin Branch, the police does not want to see you working at say a Hess Banqiao Branch. That is illegally working. You work according to what's on your paperwork/ARC, and that is specific to a business location (e.g. Hess Shilin Branch). The police however, understand that schools do this all the time to teachers, meaning they know teachers get switched from place to place (especially by the large chains). However, under their rules and regulations and their understanding of the law, that's illegally working and teachers shouldn't do that.

I had explained to the police some of the tricks and techniques that schools would employ and they were aware of some of it, and not aware of others. The usual one about using a 60-day visitor's visa as a window to change one's status is a technique the police do not like and want to close down on completely. They are naturally concerned given the bigger picture on how this affects the English/teaching business but not sure what they can do. It's a start of further discussions and education on both sides. The NPA FAP is only a small part of the big picture but at least we can try to make them aware of the concerns of English teachers.

If anyone has something to share regarding the English teaching side of things, our office would love to hear from so that we can take your concerns to the people who need to understand them. Please send us your concerns (anonymously is fine too) to immigration@ml-mclean.com or info@ml-mclean.com.
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Postby brian » 22 Sep 2005, 20:02

Good information. It's good to hear what 'the other side' are thinking.

I think that this is a concern though:

ML McLean wrote: I had explained to the police some of the tricks and techniques that schools would employ and they were aware of some of it, and not aware of others. The usual one about using a 60-day visitor's visa as a window to change one's status is a technique the police do not like and want to close down on completely. They are naturally concerned given the bigger picture on how this affects the English/teaching business but not sure what they can do.


I assume that you are talking about the process of arriving on a 60 day visitors visa, finding work and then converting this into a resident visa while in Taiwan. I don't see this as a trick but more as common sense practice that seem to be to everyones benefit. Can you clarify what the police mean by the effect upon the industry?

What is the alternative? For teachers to commit to schools before coming and for schools to commit to teachers before meeting them?

The only way to do this is for the teacher or the school to pay for the teacher to come here first for an inteview and then return at a later date on the resident visa. Which isn't very practical.

Of for schools and teachers to use email and phone to make arrangements, sign a contract, apply for the work permit, and then have the teacher arrive on a resident visa.

From your talks, what was the FAP proposing as an alternative to the current process, which as I say seems to be in everyones best interests.
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Postby Miranda » 22 Sep 2005, 21:07

ML McLean wrote:The usual one about using a 60-day visitor's visa as a window to change one's status is a technique the police do not like and want to close down on completely.


But this is how almost every foreigner ever employed in Taiwan got their resident visa and work permit. MOFA happily issue the new resident visa in Taipei, and then you get your ARC. How else could it be done? When I asked the British TRO they said they had never done a work permit/resident visa application from abroad (in 2000) and that you should get a visitor visa and do it in Taipei.

The European Chamber of Commerce asked the government this very question after the government seemed to be suggesting that it would no longer accept RV applications from people on visitor visas. Of course they got no meaningful reply, but that's how people are getting their RVs now, isn't it? Or are they no longer issuing resident visas in Taiwan? Is that why everyone I meet on the High Speed Rail is contracting instead of doing the resident visa thing?

More info would be very useful.
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Postby ML McLean » 22 Sep 2005, 23:32

brian wrote:Good information. It's good to hear what 'the other side' are thinking.

I think that this is a concern though:

ML McLean wrote: I had explained to the police some of the tricks and techniques that schools would employ and they were aware of some of it, and not aware of others. The usual one about using a 60-day visitor's visa as a window to change one's status is a technique the police do not like and want to close down on completely. They are naturally concerned given the bigger picture on how this affects the English/teaching business but not sure what they can do.


I assume that you are talking about the process of arriving on a 60 day visitors visa, finding work and then converting this into a resident visa while in Taiwan. I don't see this as a trick but more as common sense practice that seem to be to everyones benefit. Can you clarify what the police mean by the effect upon the industry?


You're right. This was discussed. When I first started to understand this process used in Taiwan, my immediate reaction was, "this is a work around". This was based on my understanding of US immigration laws and regulations. However, I felt that immigration laws, philosophically, are pretty much the same throughout the world. And based on my discussions with the NPA, my initial suspicions are correct. The current use of the 60-day visitor's visa process exists because the current method in which foreign workers come to Taiwan is totally broken.

brian wrote:What is the alternative? For teachers to commit to schools before coming and for schools to commit to teachers before meeting them?


Yes, this is the preferred method and one that is legal and is documented.

brian wrote:The only way to do this is for the teacher or the school to pay for the teacher to come here first for an inteview and then return at a later date on the resident visa. Which isn't very practical.

Of for schools and teachers to use email and phone to make arrangements, sign a contract, apply for the work permit, and then have the teacher arrive on a resident visa.


It isn't practical, I agree. However, from the NPA point of view, that's what they'd prefer to see. Also, it's well documented on the MOFA/BOCA websites (and other printed docs) that work-based resident visas are an option for entering into Taiwan. If you have a legitimate work invitation, then you SHOULD BE USING THAT METHOD. That's the law. Only the large MNC types follow this it seems. Most other people don't. They make status changes while in Taiwan.

My feeling is that this is preferred if possible to accomplish. The reason is this: you are entering into Taiwan on legitimate pretexts, not on false pretexts. Not only that, but when folks come to us to evaluate their visa/immigration status problems, the first point of analysis starts from "how did you enter Taiwan, what is your status?" Why? Because that's how the Taiwan government agencies do it. Depending on how you entered Taiwan, it colors their view on your case. I don't quite understand it totally but that's how it is.

brian wrote:From your talks, what was the FAP proposing as an alternative to the current process, which as I say seems to be in everyones best interests.


It never got to that point. And my connections do not rise high enough to even really discuss these points. The folks I'm in touch with are the ones who are supposed to enforce the law as they understand it. They don't have much leeway to propose policy changes. That would be for another time and place.
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