Where are the electric cars at?

[finley]

There are a number of mega hub motors out there that would power almost anything on the road - some 10K watts each. There are some kits that come with an entirely new wheel with the hub motor installed in it, including regenerative braking. That is one of the easiest conversions I have seen.

Where did you see these, pengyou? I'd be interested in getting hold of some.

[Ducked]

Always thought it was a pity there wasn't some way one could use the starter motor independently of the engine, for inching along in traffic jams.

Seems like it'd be a fairly trivial modification, though idiot-proofing it to stop people stranding themselves with a flat battery/burned-out starter might be tricky.

The starter motors, wiring, and batteries which are presently fitted the the majority of road cars are not up to the task of actually providing enough power, to propel a vehicle.

Well, yeh, but that'll depend to some extent on what you mean by "propel".

I'm thinking of the traffic-jam situation, where you can hardly move, but you still have to put the car in gear every half-minute or so and creep forward a metre or two. I dunno how serious the wear and tear on the car is, but the wear on my patience is considerable.

I can reduce both by letting a relatively large gap open up in front of me and accelerating into it it very slowly, but that seems to invariably infuriate the driver behind me, who is invariably an irrational idiot. I believe I've (indirectly) caused at least one crash by this entirely reasonable behaviour, so unfortunately I've had to learn to moderate it.

Seems to me if you can start a car with a stuck clutch, fighting both the cars inertia, and the engine/flywheel's compression, frictional and rotational inertia resistance, then a beefed-up-a-bit system with the engine/flywheel disconnected from the starter motor and drivetrain should be able to provide an intermittant crawler function without auto-destructing.

Some automated system for preventing abuse/overuse would probably be a practical requirement, at least on a production system.

Could well be this wouldn't be sufficiently attractive to enough people to justify its cost,though.

[sulavaca]

Seems to me if you can start a car with a stuck clutch, fighting both the cars inertia, and the engine/flywheel's compression, frictional and rotational inertia resistance, then a beefed-up-a-bit system with the engine/flywheel disconnected from the starter motor and drivetrain should be able to provide an intermittant crawler function without auto-destructing.

Some automated system for preventing abuse/overuse would probably be a practical requirement, at least on a production system.

Could well be this wouldn't be sufficiently attractive to enough people to justify its cost,though.

Well, as I say there are hybrid systems out there, but none which is easily fitted to an old tech car which I'm aware of. The present flywheel, starter, battery, and auto-boxes, would all have to be adapted and swapped in order to work. There would be no simple solution, which would be considered even partly reliable.

[pengyou]

Well, as I say there are hybrid systems out there, but none which is easily fitted to an old tech car which I'm aware of. The present flywheel, starter, battery, and auto-boxes, would all have to be adapted and swapped in order to work. There would be no simple solution, which would be considered even partly reliable.

Yes, you are right. The hub motors are the closest thing you are going to get to having a "bolt on" solution.

Where did I see these? I found them about three years ago when I was looking for options for the typical IC motor in a car. I was living in mainland at the time and was thinking that a little miandi would make a nice little electric putput for around town. You can go to Alibaba.com and search for them - electric hub motors. Also there is a users group based in Austin, Texas - try googling on that also. Sorry, but I don't have those pages bookmarked anymore. They are NOT cheap.

[sulavaca]

Well, as I say there are hybrid systems out there, but none which is easily fitted to an old tech car which I'm aware of. The present flywheel, starter, battery, and auto-boxes, would all have to be adapted and swapped in order to work. There would be no simple solution, which would be considered even partly reliable.

Yes, you are right. The hub motors are the closest thing you are going to get to having a "bolt on" solution.

Where did I see these? I found them about three years ago when I was looking for options for the typical IC motor in a car. I was living in mainland at the time and was thinking that a little miandi would make a nice little electric putput for around town. You can go to Alibaba.com and search for them - electric hub motors. Also there is a users group based in Austin, Texas - try googling on that also. Sorry, but I don't have those pages bookmarked anymore. They are NOT cheap.

Even these wouldn't be a simple solution. They would need large battery packs, a large amount of re-wiring and an alternative alternator.

Then you have the engine issues. About 80 percent of engine wear occurs on start up only, when the oil has drained out of the oil pump and galleys. To reduce this the vehicle would also then need an additional electric oil pump, which would automatically kick in before startup.

Then we have fuel efficiency issues. The engine is most efficient when up to operating temperature. In hybrid vehicles, the computer is mapped to account for all sorts of variables, which decide when to keep the engine running and when to stop it.

The Taiwanese government, in all of their wisdom have decided that all vehicles are more efficient when they are turned off at the three minute mark, or before. Well I'm not going to go into ALL of the reasons that this may not ALWAYS be correct, but it isn't.

Hybrids are hybrids, and are designed to work as such, HHO vehicles are HHO vehicles and are designed to work with a normal old tech setup. I haven't seen a simple electrical motor setup yet however, which would turn a vehicle into a well working hybrid with a minimum of alteration. I don't think one will be available either as an HHO setup would be the immediate cheap and simple solution. You can even build one at home with varying results.

[finley]

Ducked, I think what you're describing is basically the way a Prius works - the key component is the special power-split epicyclic gear that connects the motor, generator, and engine. I guess there's no reason why you couldn't make the motor and battery smaller so that electrical power is only used for stop-start driving. It's an interesting idea, but whether it's economically feasible is another question. And it certainly wouldn't be a simple retrofit job.

pengyou, I'll have another look on alibaba. I have seen hub motors there, but they're all sub-kilowatt, low-voltage crap for electric bikes. I just didn't look hard enough for the real motors, I guess.

[sulavaca]

Ducked, I think what you're describing is basically the way a Prius works - the key component is the special power-split epicyclic gear that connects the motor, generator, and engine. I guess there's no reason why you couldn't make the motor and battery smaller so that electrical power is only used for stop-start driving. It's an interesting idea, but whether it's economically feasible is another question. And it certainly wouldn't be a simple retrofit job.

It would also fail to power the vacuum assisted braking system, which would typically loose it's assistance after three depressions of the brake. This would make such a system dangerous, and most likely illegal if the government had anything to do with it.
As you said, it comes down to economy, and to provide the host of actions which a ready made hybrid does, it would likely be cost ineffective.
I don't like throwing cold water on imaginative ideas, and I'm a big fan of alternative technologies and especially shed-engineers or DIY-ers, but just based on what I know alone, concerning old tech cars, this type of a system would face prohibitive costs, and a huge number of challenges in alterations.
The best hope for an old tech setup, is to reduce the traditional fuel spent, and incorporate a less limited fuel such as (but not limited to) HHO, which is a simpler, additional setup and would allow the engine to keep running along with all of its auxiliaries. This tech is in its infancy at this time, and the most common result is that it causes a reduction of around ten to twenty percent in fuel consumption, from the figures I read about.

[pengyou]

HHO is hydrogen....ala Hindenberg I have not seen a practical, i.e. small storage system for HHO that would work in todays mini to midsized cars.

Yes, there are issues any time you want to make any adaptation to a vehicle. Today's cars are designed from the ground up to be as light as possible while still being safe and providing the performance and comfort that most people expect. If you want to convert a car to some alternative fuel or motor, the average mortal man is not going to produce results that are "showroom" perfect. But if someone wants to do some experimentation and has reasonable expectations it is possible to do a conversion. The Austin group had a project page with many thousands of completed projects. Knowledge, or lack of is an issue, but the biggest problem is usually a lack of money.

Batteries are big and heavy. The weight issue can be addressed by using some kind of Lithiumxx battery, but the cost goes up 2-3 times. Still, it is more of a hobby for some people than a life work.

[Ducked]

Even these wouldn't be a simple solution. They would need large battery packs, a large amount of re-wiring and an alternative alternator.

Probably not for the extremely minimal usage I outlined, though restricting them to that usage might admittedly be a waste.

Then you have the engine issues. About 80 percent of engine wear occurs on start up only, when the oil has drained out of the oil pump and galleys. To reduce this the vehicle would also then need an additional electric oil pump, which would automatically kick in before startup.

Again, for the minimal usage I outlined, that seems to be a rather secondary issue, and, as I've pointed out several times on here to deafening silence, its one that can rather simply be addressed by a (solenoid controlled if necessary) oil accumulator, which could be rather simply retrofitted. You don't need an electric oil pump.

HHO vehicles are HHO vehicles and are designed to work with a normal old tech setup. I haven't seen a simple electrical motor setup yet however, which would turn a vehicle into a well working hybrid with a minimum of alteration. I don't think one will be available either as an HHO setup would be the immediate cheap and simple solution. You can even build one at home with varying results.

Hmm...OK, on the subject of deafening silences.... although I initially thought you were trying an April Fool, I'm now fairly convinced that you really do think there's something in this "Brown's Gas" malarky.

I don't rule it out absolutely, and we had a thread a while ago on an HHO generator I'd seen at a Taipei "Green" expo, which claimed, plausibly I thought, to increase combustion efficiency a bit.

I havn't seen anything to justify or explain really large benefits, though, from you or anyone else. Have I missed something?

[sulavaca]

HHO is hydrogen....ala Hindenberg I have not seen a practical, i.e. small storage system for HHO that would work in todays mini to midsized cars.

Yes, there are issues any time you want to make any adaptation to a vehicle. Today's cars are designed from the ground up to be as light as possible while still being safe and providing the performance and comfort that most people expect. If you want to convert a car to some alternative fuel or motor, the average mortal man is not going to produce results that are "showroom" perfect. But if someone wants to do some experimentation and has reasonable expectations it is possible to do a conversion. The Austin group had a project page with many thousands of completed projects. Knowledge, or lack of is an issue, but the biggest problem is usually a lack of money.

Batteries are big and heavy. The weight issue can be addressed by using some kind of Lithiumxx battery, but the cost goes up 2-3 times. Still, it is more of a hobby for some people than a life work.

The large, dramatic Hindenburg fire was caused by its exterior material, not so much it's hydrogen.
Hydrogen is dangerous, but then again, so is petrol. There are ways to contain both. By the way, many of the HHO systems which are readily available for easy fitment to cars produce little HHO, so they are very safe indeed to use, and do a very good job of increasing fuel efficiency.
Another little tit bit of information, is that hydrogen burns so quickly, that it's all over with very quickly indeed. That's great if you want to build a bomb. If you wish to run a car on it alone though, then you need to alter your timing by quite a margin. Still, HHO in such small quantities doesn't produce a serious threat to anyone, as even if it ignited in it's small, weak cell, then it would all be burned up, likely before anything under the bonnet/hood even has chance to ignite.