Stray dogs problem.

Re: Stray dogs problem.

Postby engerim » 13 May 2012, 14:25

Ex Animo wrote:I was at the council meeting where the decision was made to catch and kill, and it was made despite all warnings to the contrary from people such as the ai xin mamas who reminded the council that the method had been used for twenty-odd years in Hsinchu and the situation only got worse over those years. It doesn't work.

I'm not talking about the problem in general here
(where the only solution wouid be to educate people not to abandon dogs or impose fines on those that abandon dogs).
But you can't even trace a dog to its owner here! They don't require a chip. So that's far from happening.

I talk about communities that have an EXCESS of stray dogs, and catch & kill works in this case.
I guess even the EPA executes it when asked for it. What the hell you suggest? Catch them, neuter and release?!
Please don't forget policies are poorly executed here.
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Re: Stray dogs problem.

Postby superking » 13 May 2012, 14:29

These discussions are always tricky because you have two parties at either ends of a spectrum, both who are emotionally involved. At one end you have Group A, the parent/disgruntled walker/ upset tenant. At the other end you have Group B, those who love dogs (?)/ want to see the situation dealt with humanely.
Group A react strongly and want to defend their position. They don't want to live in a society where dogs roam the streets. They don't want to hear that when a pack of dogs circles their car they should know how to react. They certainly don't want to hear that any confrontation with a vicious dog is their responsibility to control, and that animals shouldn't be put down when aggressive (we kill people who go rogue, after all). Group B want to inform Group A that they need to help sort the situation out. That their emotional reactions are exacerbating the situation. That a bit of education and some (lot of) money would make all of this go away forever. That somehow just randomly getting mad and killing/ removing small pockets of dogs does nothing. That a united strategy and a concerted effort would fix this.


However, the total situation is fuelled by members of both groups. Some people in group A chuck dogs onto the street. Some people in group B over feed and protect these dogs. So the people in Group A don't really want to listen to those in Group B, seeing as they are viewed as half of the problem. So why should Group A listen to Group B? Especially when Group A's solution fixes their own personal situation in about 10 seconds, whereas Group B's solution appears to mean leaving the dogs exactly where they are until they die off. Why choose group B's long term island wide strategy over a quick fix? (This is a rhetorical question). Group A want to be angry right now and require a similar solution. Group B have a solution, but it requires a slow process, one that does not satisfy the instant gratification which a Group A member requires.

I postulate that the solution needs to be dealt with at government level. If stray dogs are a problem in your society you need to be lobbying government to start implementing Group B's long term strategy, but with a visible short term goal of wiping out small pockets/ individual cases of aggressive dogs to appease Group A.

The whole issue is inhumane, because we are talking about humans distorting animal populations. What we have let grow too much, now we have to destroy. Either quickly, or slowly, we are talking about the destruction of an unnatural population. Death for these dogs is the only solution. The question really is: how quickly is humane and effective enough?
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Re: Stray dogs problem.

Postby engerim » 13 May 2012, 14:33

superking wrote:Death for these dogs is the only solution. The question really is: how quickly is humane and effective enough?

the longer you wait the worse it gets, they bread! People even feed them!
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Re: Stray dogs problem.

Postby qiagen » 13 May 2012, 14:37

I wish people would feed me bread.
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Re: Stray dogs problem.

Postby Ex Animo » 13 May 2012, 14:41

superking wrote:These discussions are always tricky because you have two parties at either ends of a spectrum, both who are emotionally involved. At one end you have Group A, the parent/disgruntled walker/ upset tenant. At the other end you have Group B, those who love dogs (?)/ want to see the situation dealt with humanely.


No. We are talking about fixing the problem the only way possible. It just happens to also be the most humane method.

superking wrote:However, the total situation is fuelled by members of both groups. Some people in group A chuck dogs onto the street. Some people in group B over feed and protect these dogs.


I have seen zero evidence of this. Not sure where you've got this idea from.

superking wrote:Death for these dogs is the only solution.


No, it's not. It's getting them off the street, in whatever way that means. I understand what you're trying to say, but one of the keys to fixing this is that the dogs don't die; we need neutered dogs as the majority of the population. After that, it's keeping dogs in homes, not killing them.
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Re: Stray dogs problem.

Postby Kea » 13 May 2012, 15:02

Ex Animo wrote:
Kea wrote:If I am simply walking and a dog comes within a foot of me aggressively it can expect a strong reaction. I won't kill it, but will scare it or bruise it (unless it's a pitbull, eh TM :wink: ). I would be doubly so for any family member. Why should I wait for it to bite me?


Make sure there is someone nearby to help after this gets you or your kid bitten. There are YouTube videos showing why the reaction you would use is exactly the right one to make the situation worse for you and your family. I'd make sure I didn't escalate the problem, but then that comes with experience. There's a reason why I encounter hundreds of times more stray dogs than most of you and have yet to get bitten by any loose ones (other than a mum who nipped my ankle as I carried her pup away).

I encounter heaps myself when hiking, but almost never have any problem with them since I am not afraid of them That wouldn't apply if they crowded around any family member so I reserve the right to act like an aggressive beast to defend myself if need be. Where I go hiking there are people that feed them right beside the hiking trail, so then the dogs think that's their home, I like them myself, the new puppies, the different types of dogs...but toward evenings and on rainy days they do kindo of take over, and there are old people and kids who also hike. Also, there are plenty of people with pet dogs, on and off leash. First step would be neutering all dogs, and feeding them a long way away from the trail. Still, they shouldn't be there.

Ex Animo wrote:
Kea wrote:Back on topic-Stray Dog is right for this situation-take out the females, neuter the rest is the first approach. Then moving the feeding of them much further away, and giving them some type of rudimentary dwelling to protect from the rain and cold, much further away. Good luck to the OP, I'd hate to have that problem outside my home.

No. Neuter all. Take away only the truly aggressive ones. Never heard of the neutering-only-males-and-taking-away-females approach, and can't see how that would work anyway. It's certainly not what I would advocate. Intact males tend to be the most anti-social; some groups do target females, but this is purely to limit the number of pups as quickly as possible, but it does little to address (and may actually worsen) the anti-social behaviour that most people complain about.

And I'm Ex Animo, not Stray Dog. ;-)
ok to both, I misunderstood on a quick read and recall.


I just want to add, I do try your advice at times and it is useful for me (since I'm tall and strong). Maybe not for smaller people. However, the dogs shouldn't be there.
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Re: Stray dogs problem.

Postby superking » 13 May 2012, 15:04

Ex Animo wrote:
superking wrote:These discussions are always tricky because you have two parties at either ends of a spectrum, both who are emotionally involved. At one end you have Group A, the parent/disgruntled walker/ upset tenant. At the other end you have Group B, those who love dogs (?)/ want to see the situation dealt with humanely.


No. We are talking about fixing the problem the only way possible. It just happens to also be the most humane method.


It's this only way possible thing that causes you trouble. People in Group A don't want that solution. The only way possible, is, as I posit, running a long term strategy but with some visible short term strategies thrown in.

Ex Animo wrote:
superking wrote:However, the total situation is fuelled by members of both groups. Some people in group A chuck dogs onto the street. Some people in group B over feed and protect these dogs.


I have seen zero evidence of this. Not sure where you've got this idea from.


In a large majority of the cases I have read on this board there is an old lady, or a cabal of sympathisers, putting out food each day for the dogs. We have the same problem with old ladies feeding pigeons in the UK, but pigeons don't bite or causes stress, they just crap on everything. So you have people who don't want dogs vs people who do want dogs, and these overlap into group A and B membership. Most people in both groups want rational things, but some people in both groups do not want this. In neither case do I see members of one group being seemingly able to comprehend the logic of the members of the other group, and then trying to integrate both streams into some unified strategy.

Ex Animo wrote:
superking wrote:Death for these dogs is the only solution.


No, it's not. It's getting them off the street, in whatever way that means. I understand what you're trying to say, but one of the keys to fixing this is that the dogs don't die; we need neutered dogs as the majority of the population. After that, it's keeping dogs in homes, not killing them.


I should have said, "Death for these groups of dogs," is the only solution. You capture them and neuter them or rehouse them you are killing off that pack. It's humane in either case, because you give the dog the chance to live out the rest of its natural life. When you round them up and kill them you are blaming the dogs for the failure of the society. Although I can understand why this seems like an appealing situation to the first time Group A member.

Anyway, you guys go knock yourselves out now proving me right. :D
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Re: Stray dogs problem.

Postby Petrichor » 13 May 2012, 18:26

Ex Animo wrote:Thanks for asking.

Avoiding eye contact is great, and you should keep doing that, and also narrow your eyes as though sleepy, and look down at the ground as though interested in something there, as this is what a dog will do to appease another dog that could be seen as a threat. Stand still, tall, and confident, and just imagine to yourself that everything is cool and you're just standing your ground. It's actually best not to walk away until the dog does. They have a very short attention span and will soon lose interest in you and start to walk away. When you do the same, it's wise to back away, so that you can see (out of the corner of your eye) if the dog is approaching again, in which case you just stop again and repeat as above.

If you do this every time you go past the same dog, you should notice that the dog will stop coming out to challenge you anyway.

If the dog should get too close, take a look at the head. High or low, the dog means no harm, but if straight out, kind of like a border collie herding sheep, then you should take (calm) action. Hold something between you and the dog, such as a newspaper or umbrella, and you'll be amazed at how this diffuses the situation as the dog backs away. Give a short, sharp, deep, fourth tone, confident 'Ah!' and the dog will stop (I've used this to stop an aggressive dog I had on leash jumping up to bite my face). You could also try shouting 'Sit" or 'Down' in Chinese.


Thanks, I'll try those tips. We regularly encounter stray dogs in a small mountain area we pass through on the way to school.
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Re: Stray dogs problem.

Postby asiababy » 13 May 2012, 18:36

Petrichor,

We have reserved one morning at our Parents' Place Summer Camp (third week of July) for someone to come and talk/demonstrate safety around dogs to our kids. Cost for the morning is 450/child (including snack, some of this will be donated to the charity) and we hope kids can bring a small donation to give to the charity that does the talk, so they can directly experience the feeling of giving. I'll let you and other people with kids know when we have final details.
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Re: Stray dogs problem.

Postby finley » 13 May 2012, 22:08

Ex Animo wrote:Avoiding eye contact is great, and you should keep doing that, and also narrow your eyes as though sleepy, and look down at the ground as though interested in something there, as this is what a dog will do to appease another dog that could be seen as a threat. Stand still, tall, and confident, and just imagine to yourself that everything is cool and you're just standing your ground. It's actually best not to walk away until the dog does. They have a very short attention span and will soon lose interest in you and start to walk away. When you do the same, it's wise to back away, so that you can see (out of the corner of your eye) if the dog is approaching again, in which case you just stop again and repeat as above.

If you do this every time you go past the same dog, you should notice that the dog will stop coming out to challenge you anyway.

If the dog should get too close, take a look at the head. High or low, the dog means no harm, but if straight out, kind of like a border collie herding sheep, then you should take (calm) action. Hold something between you and the dog, such as a newspaper or umbrella, and you'll be amazed at how this diffuses the situation as the dog backs away. Give a short, sharp, deep, fourth tone, confident 'Ah!' and the dog will stop (I've used this to stop an aggressive dog I had on leash jumping up to bite my face). You could also try shouting 'Sit" or 'Down' in Chinese.


I've done this sort of thing many times (as I recall, you've posted this advice before) and it works. Every time.

There probably are a few incorrigibly psychotic dogs out there. Just like the human variant, they're usually like that because they've been abused. They ought to be caught and put down. It's the kindest thing for all concerned. The rest of them are just being dogs, and, as Ex Animo says, have a pretty short attention span. There's one near my house that will often make "aggressive" moves on passers-by, but it turns out he's just bored (or possibly a bit 'tarded) and wants to play; if you stop and make a fuss of him, he goes all silly and doggy again.

Yeah, yeah, sure, you can set up a government department for stray control, pay them a shitload of tax revenue, and have them incessantly rounding up and killing dogs until the end of time. That's the "modern" way of doing things: set up a fundamentally-flawed system that requires Sisyphean efforts to keep it going, and throw money and energy it. Or, we humans - who are supposedly the more intelligent species - can do what Ex Animo suggested, which costs precisely nothing in money or lives. Perhaps we can also do something about the culture that causes the problem in the first place.
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