Taiwanese Citizenship and Renunciation

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Re: Taiwanese Citizenship and Renunciation

Postby Satellite TV » 23 Feb 2012, 03:37

Muzha Man wrote:As for your contention that 70,000 have already renounced their original citizenship, you can't be serious. The majority of these are poor SE Asian and Chinese women. Of course what is here is better. That isn't the case for most western expats.


Those western expats are free to leave if they cannot make it here. It's not my fault they cannot do better here, as you claim. That is their own issue.
The reality is that most of the western expats I meet are doing far better than they were where they came from.
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Re: Taiwanese Citizenship and Renunciation

Postby Impaler » 23 Feb 2012, 06:34

Satellite TV wrote:
Impaler wrote:
Satellite TV wrote:Why dont you ask the 70,000 or so who have done so. Llary and I both renonced because we want to live here with all the benefits and obligations that come along with ROC Nationality. Yes I am treated just the same in China as any other ROC National. Please let us know when China takes over.


Is that 70,000 Aussies/Brits and other first-worlders? I didn't think there were that many first-world expats, much less immigrants. Lots of Vietnamese brides from what I've read here, though, as well as some Burmese refugees.


First worlders? is there a better question in here? who are you to tell someone the citizenship they hold is not first world to them? What difference does it make what foreign nationality they held before becoming ROC Citizens? Reality is there are very few immigrants settilng here from western countries as compared to close by Asian countries. Is their decision to renounce any different to mine?

I'm not "tell(ing) someone" anything about their citizenship. But there's a reason 18yo Thai girls marry 65yo British guys (to the point that the Thais are considering refusing to recognize marriages of a Thai woman to any foreigner over 50yo), and a reason that Western tourists get propositioned by Vietnamese to "marry my daughter and get her out of here!", and it's not the penis-size thing.
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Re: Taiwanese Citizenship and Renunciation

Postby Impaler » 23 Feb 2012, 06:39

Satellite TV wrote:
Muzha Man wrote:Don't shift your pieces about. You've been checked and mated.


No he hasn't.

Your information that you provided was false. 1 that Canada sold citizenship ( when it never has ) and 2 that Singapore hands it out like candy as well.

Cybargs was correct in stating that is a better business environment and better management of residency for foreign investors and professionals to move to places like HK and Singapore.

I don't know about Canada (not) "selling" citizenship, but they definitely "sold" immigrant investor visas to Hong Kongers just prior to the 1997 handover. The U.S. was roundly criticized by the American media for demanding US$1,000,000 in investment funds for a "green card" when Canada was handing out "landed immigrant" status for CDN$50,000 in investment funds.

Of course, the fact that both statuses put immigrants on the path to citizenship is entirely another matter.

Edit: here's an article on it from the Seattle Times in 1991; the criticisms started getting really loud in about 1996.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource. ... ug=1318018
And another from the Washington Post by way of the Seattle Times:
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource. ... ug=2580620
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Re: Taiwanese Citizenship and Renunciation

Postby Tigerman » 23 Feb 2012, 07:31

cyborg_ninja wrote:If there is a need to renounce my ROC nationality to prove loyalty to Australia (eg, getting a Sec Clearance), I would do it in a heartbeat.


Tigerman wrote:There's that if again. :lol: Why shouldn't others be able to have that luxury?


bismarck wrote:But they do. They have the choice to renounce their original citizenship in order to prove their loyalty and commitment to the ROC. :D


That's idiotic. Do you not see the obvious contradiction? Both SatTV and CN have two passports. So do many Taiwanese who later obtained citizenship in some other nation. If loyalty is an issue, then why allow Taiwanese citizens to obtain a second citizenship, elsewhere?

Are you guys being purposely obtuse?
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

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Re: Taiwanese Citizenship and Renunciation

Postby Omniloquacious » 23 Feb 2012, 07:36

Satellite TV wrote: Somebody made a claim a couple of hundred western expats might apply if they didn't have to renounce. Why would the ROC government give a shite about a few hundred who wont renounce when 70,000 plus people have renounced to become citizens here?


Let's see now. Because those few hundred constitute and represent a pool of highly valuable knowledge, skills and talent that have been making a very considerable contribution to Taiwan's economy and society, and will be anchored here to magnify that contribution if they can become dual citizens. Whereas all but a handful of the 70,000 are uneducated girls from villages in China and Southeast Asia who have been purchased as brides by Taiwanese men on the lowest rung of society, and who are as likely to be a burden on this society as they are to make any significant contribution to it other than enabling semi-literate pig farmers and blue truck drivers to reproduce.

I believe you can grasp that distinction, can you not?
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Re: Taiwanese Citizenship and Renunciation

Postby Tigerman » 23 Feb 2012, 07:36

cyborg_ninja wrote:Yeah since the US immigration service is talking out of their ass

Solemnly, freely, and without mental reservation, I hereby renounce under oath all allegiance to any foreign state. My fidelity and allegiance from this day forward is to the United States of America. I pledge to support, honor, and be loyal to the United States, its Constitution, and its laws. Where and if lawfully required, I further commit myself to defend the Constitution and laws of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, either by military, noncombatant, or civilian service. This I do solemnly swear, so help me God.


If you just want to fuck around, fine. But, don't expect people to take you seriously.

Yes, new citizens take that oath. But, it is largely symbolic, as IN FACT, the US does not require new citizens to renounce their first citizenships and hand over their passports.
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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Re: Taiwanese Citizenship and Renunciation

Postby Tigerman » 23 Feb 2012, 07:44

cyborg_ninja wrote:Well no shit you get your H1B first (working), then you can go meet your residency requirements for Green Card, and THEN you can apply for citizenship.


That's wrong. You don't know what you're talking about.
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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Re: Taiwanese Citizenship and Renunciation

Postby Omniloquacious » 23 Feb 2012, 07:46

Satellite TV wrote: Bismarck and Llary would have to tell you why they support the policy of renunciation


We understand it completely. It's entirely transparent. It's a foible of human nature not to want others to have easier access to something we've had to struggle to obtain. Most of us feel such sentiments at some time or other, and few of us are able to rise above them to embrace a more benignant standpoint.
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This post was recommended by 2 Forumosans: Northcoast Surfer (23 Feb 2012, 16:43), Tigerman (23 Feb 2012, 07:50)
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Re: Taiwanese Citizenship and Renunciation

Postby Tigerman » 23 Feb 2012, 07:49

Confuzius wrote:Actually you (and me until just now, and evidently most people...unless wikipedia is totally wrong here) misunderstand the issue....

Evidently the US (in the quote posted above) DOES require one to forego their citizenship (for example a Taiwanese immigrant)


No. The oath of citizenship that newly naturalized US citizens take is largely symbolic and a relic of the past. In fact, the US does NOT require anyone to forego or otherwise renounce their original citizenship.

When my wife went through the process of obtaining permanent residency and then naturalization in the US, never once did anyone at INS, DOJ or State ask her to renounce her Taiwan citizenship. Her original citizenship was never an issue.

This is true for the hundreds of thousands of new immigrants/US citizens.

cyborg ninja is talking out of his ass. He's read a bit and now thinks he understands the world. :roll:
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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Taiwanese Citizenship and Renunciation

Postby headhonchoII » 23 Feb 2012, 09:22

bismarck wrote:
Tigerman wrote:
cyborg_ninja wrote:If there is a need to renounce my ROC nationality to prove loyalty to Australia (eg, getting a Sec Clearance), I would do it in a heartbeat.


There's that if again. :lol: Why shouldn't others be able to have that luxury?

But they do. They have the choice to renounce their original citizenship in order to prove their loyalty and commitment to the ROC. :D


It doesn't prove anything beyond you really want that passport. I can also prove I really want a passport by spending lots of money. Once I get it what happens? Who knows?

There's no clear reason to force renunciation of original passport nor is it enforced equally to all applicants, it just doesn't make any sense, it's discriminatory and therefore why keep it?
CN should bow out of the debate now he's made himself look like a right eejit.
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