The education system, methods and results

Moderators: Tempo Gain, TheGingerMan

Forum rules
We hope that the Living in Taiwan forum will be of value to you and others. To ensure this, please note:

It is best to capitalize topics and to avoid vague titles. “Hi, I’m new” and “Help please” are examples of bad titles.

Before posting, please check the FAQ thread, and – more importantly – use the search function to ensure that your topic has not been discussed before and that there is not an existing thread you could update with your contribution.

While Living in Taiwan is a busy, wide-ranging forum, there are other specific forums for relationships, teaching, business, legal issues, animals, food, events, travel, restaurants, and so on. Check the Forumosa menu to find the most appropriate place for your post.

While it is preferable to post questions dealing with dissimilar topics in separate threads (“How Much for an Apartment in Tianmu?”, “Are There Many Foreigners in Tianmu?”), if you are a new arrival, it is possible to present numerous questions in one post, but realize that your thread will then, after two weeks, be merged into the New to Taiwan: Some Questions thread.

The education system, methods and results

Postby E04teacherlin » 15 Mar 2012, 12:58

In another thread, tsukinodeynatsu wrote:E04, if you don't want to be called racist stop saying racist things. In fact, why don't you change your racist way of thinking? You obviously have this ingrained thought that there is an 'us Taiwanese' and a 'them foreigners' in the world - THIS IS A DISCRIMINATORY THOUGHT. There is no 'us' and 'them', just people. 外國人跟台灣人有什麼相同呢?對啊,我們都是「人」. Certain things might be more prevalent among a certain type of people, but that doesn't mean every member of a group is the same - for instance, most Taiwanese people have straight hair, but some people have naturally curly hair, and this doesn't make them any less a part of the group.

Likewise, please stop talking about 'you foreigners' or the like. If you want to talk about 'you foreigners' I will first have to ask you to consider the following questions:
1) What country's nationals are you referring to? As you probably know, there are a lot of 'foreign countries', and I find it hard to imagine that you would assume Indians, Canadians and Koreans all think alike.
2) Are you sure that ALL of these people think this? Generalisations are not only counter-productive but they also tend to make the generalised look less educated. All words should be carefully considered before being written or spoken.


I recommended your post because you are the first person who clearly knows what they are talking about. I am sure very few if any actually read the study you posted. I have and I therefore also posted results from math and science (you could look at literacy rates also) to show that whilst our education system has many flaws, it also has many positive aspects. The kids are having objectives met without English in kindergarten. There is also a solid indication that English ability has not been rapidly declining since the law, but granted no study.
I do not have racist thoughts. Do you honestly think my English ability would be where it is if I didn't have many foreign friends? I take offense by the consistent attack on Taiwanese by "you foreigners". We have been called selfish, we lack initiative, we don't show any creativity, we don't take responsibility, we are reckless drivers etc. Now someone like you would not be considered "you foreigners" , which I coincidentally have never said until the above sentence. I have always been very clear about saying many, or some. I never said all foreigners living here because some of them are my friends.
Charles Manson 跟台灣人有什麼相同呢?對啊,我們都是「人」
Suddenly doesn't seem so convincing to me.
I understand your point and I agree with it, but the problem I have is that the perception of many on this forum is so set in the we are better and know better than the Taiwanese that it becomes annoying. Of course people can question anything they want, but not from a preconceived idea of Taiwanese know nothing about language acquisition, nutrition health and pollution and we question to show them the right way. That is not being racist?
And when I respond to that negatively I am?
I am not a racist. I just have nationalistic pride.
E04teacherlin
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
 
Posts: 615
ORIGINAL POSTER
Joined: 22 Feb 2012, 01:54
85 Recommends(s)
50 Recognized(s)



Re: Years later where is the evidence that keeping foreigners out of Kindergartens has helped students?

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 15 Mar 2012, 13:07

E04teacherlin wrote:I am not a racist. I just have nationalistic pride.


That's the problem there. Everyone in the West is a moral and cultural relativist these days. :cry:
And you coming in to scold us all like some kind of sour-puss kindie assistant who favors olive cardigans and lemon drinks without sugar. -- Muzha Man

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England. -- George Orwell
GuyInTaiwan
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
 
Posts: 7231
Joined: 10 Jun 2008, 23:01
341 Recommends(s)
273 Recognized(s)



Re: Years later where is the evidence that keeping foreigners out of Kindergartens has helped students?

Postby Feiren » 15 Mar 2012, 13:44

I understand your point and I agree with it, but the problem I have is that the perception of many on this forum is so set in the we are better and know better than the Taiwanese that it becomes annoying. Of course people can question anything they want, but not from a preconceived idea of Taiwanese know nothing about language acquisition, nutrition health and pollution and we question to show them the right way. That is not being racist?


I agree with you that this attitude of superiority to the Taiwanese is common on these forums and is also annoying.

Part of the problem is that many foreigners in Taiwan are illiterate. They rely on Taiwanese people with limited English and their own patchy knowledge to reached conclusions that are partly based on the prejudices we absorb in our home society that the world is divided between the West and the Rest. They are also frustrate because most of us (myself) occupy a middling position in a very hierarchical society. We have no power, we may feel (unconsciously or otherwise) we should based on our status as emissaries of advanced societies, and we gripe when people don't listen to us.

But I don't think this is racism. It is mainly frustration bred from ignorance.

It also has to do with a healthy skepticism about what experts and governments say.

This post was recommended by 2 Forumosans: bismarck (22 Mar 2012, 14:37), xtrain (17 Mar 2012, 02:00)
Rating: 8%
Feiren
Former City Mayor (qiánrèn shìzhǎng)
Former City Mayor (qiánrèn shìzhǎng)
 
Posts: 4913
Joined: 05 Jan 2002, 17:01
Location: Drum Tower
4 Recommends(s)
204 Recognized(s)



Re: Years later where is the evidence that keeping foreigners out of Kindergartens has helped students?

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 15 Mar 2012, 15:01

Feiren: It is the West and the Rest. Where did democracy originate? The scientific method? Other than things discovered or invented independently by many cultures in antiquity, where have the overwhelming majority of scientific/medical inventions and discoveries come from?
And you coming in to scold us all like some kind of sour-puss kindie assistant who favors olive cardigans and lemon drinks without sugar. -- Muzha Man

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England. -- George Orwell
GuyInTaiwan
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
Entering Second Childhood (èrdù tóngnián qī)
 
Posts: 7231
Joined: 10 Jun 2008, 23:01
341 Recommends(s)
273 Recognized(s)



Re: Years later where is the evidence that keeping foreigners out of Kindergartens has helped students?

Postby Feiren » 15 Mar 2012, 15:29

GuyInTaiwan wrote:Feiren: It is the West and the Rest. Where did democracy originate? The scientific method? Other than things discovered or invented independently by many cultures in antiquity, where have the overwhelming majority of scientific/medical inventions and discoveries come from?


I would add law and market capitalism to your list.

But it doesn't really matter where those things came from. They are universal and are now well-known to people in Taiwan. For example, Lee Yuan-tse, the Nobel Prize winner etc.

Taiwan has a vast reserve of human capital despite its bumbling educational system. That may be less obvious to you in the sticks of Taidong (where I would love to live), but it's very clear here in Taipei. Many foreigners know so little about the subjects they edit that they can't really tell that they are dealing with an expert. Then there is the language barrier.

You should also look through Needham's Science and Civilization in China or Simon Winchester's biography of him. Needham shows pretty clearly that for most of human history China dominated technological and scientific inventions in both quantity and quality.
Feiren
Former City Mayor (qiánrèn shìzhǎng)
Former City Mayor (qiánrèn shìzhǎng)
 
Posts: 4913
Joined: 05 Jan 2002, 17:01
Location: Drum Tower
4 Recommends(s)
204 Recognized(s)



Re: Years later where is the evidence that keeping foreigners out of Kindergartens has helped students?

Postby PigBloodCake » 15 Mar 2012, 16:14

GuyInTaiwan wrote:
E04teacherlin wrote:I am not a racist. I just have nationalistic pride.


That's the problem there. Everyone in the West is a moral and cultural relativist these days. :cry:


Not true.

Semper Fi.
Life is a bitch and death is her sister.

I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell.
PigBloodCake
Sidewalk Geomancer (lù biān suàn mìng tān)
Sidewalk Geomancer (lù biān suàn mìng tān)
 
Posts: 1016
Joined: 07 Jun 2011, 16:51
9 Recommends(s)
27 Recognized(s)



Re: Years later where is the evidence that keeping foreigners out of Kindergartens has helped students?

Postby sandman » 15 Mar 2012, 17:15

we have much better knowledge of the individuals in power and where they come from.

Ha ha! :lol: Oops! Sorry! I guess you're being serious. Your conviction is quite endearing, though. And you are probably right. What are far and away the biggest-selling media organs here? -- maybe I TOO should get my news from Apple Daily and Next Magazine, then I too could get some of this "better knowledge." And let us not, of course totally discount the fine reportage of TVBS!
sandman
Manjusri (Wénshū)
 
Posts: 30176
Joined: 04 Jun 2001, 16:01
28 Recommends(s)
199 Recognized(s)



Re: Years later where is the evidence that keeping foreigners out of Kindergartens has helped students?

Postby E04teacherlin » 15 Mar 2012, 18:27

sandman wrote:
we have much better knowledge of the individuals in power and where they come from.

Ha ha! :lol: Oops! Sorry! I guess you're being serious. Your conviction is quite endearing, though. And you are probably right. What are far and away the biggest-selling media organs here? -- maybe I TOO should get my news from Apple Daily and Next Magazine, then I too could get some of this "better knowledge." And let us not, of course totally discount the fine reportage of TVBS!

You obviously have some problem with me. Nothing I can do to change that. Let me rather accept that all Taiwanese people read Apple Daily and next magazine and we spend our lives glued to TVBS. We should probably rather read all the great news supplied to us by the rapidly collapsing Murdoch empire, since only Taiwanese media focus on sensational news. The western media is so objective it is scary. Are you trying to say that English in Kindergartens were banned because of the sensational news in the media you mentioned or are you just trying to derail this thread by posting off topic stabs at me? Maybe you do know more about Taiwan than I do, but that does not mean the majority of people living here as residents from abroad are in your position.
E04teacherlin
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
Scooter Commuter (qí jī chē shàng xià bān)
 
Posts: 615
ORIGINAL POSTER
Joined: 22 Feb 2012, 01:54
85 Recommends(s)
50 Recognized(s)



Re: Years later where is the evidence that keeping foreigners out of Kindergartens has helped students?

Postby bigduke6 » 15 Mar 2012, 19:25

Please, oh please, lets not get started on the quality of the press here. YouTube clips on the news about a person complaining about the sticky tofu restaurant next door. Lets not forget the headlines about the foreigners with big hot dogs.
Or the apple daily gossip mag about some 8th grade wannabe celebrity.

The drivel what passes as news here is worthy of its own thread.

Temp here I come.

Sandman should be hung, drawn and quartered for suggesting that the local rag publish actual news. The cheek of some foreigners.
Jesus Quintana: Let me tell you something, pendejo. You pull any of your crazy shit with us, you flash a piece out on the lanes, I'll take it away from you, stick it up your ass and pull the fucking trigger 'til it goes "click."
The Dude: Jesus.
Jesus Quintana: You said it, man. Nobody
fucks with the Jesus.

Mr.Lahey: The shitabyss!
Randy: Mr. Lahey, not another night of the shitabyss, please?!
Mr.Lahey: Ah, fuck it.

If you talk to god, you're religious. If god talks to you, you're psychotic.
Gregory House

I got me a dog and named her Mybitchniggaeater.
2Pac
Forumosan avatar
bigduke6
Mandarin Marvel (Guóyǔ gāoshǒu)
Mandarin Marvel (Guóyǔ gāoshǒu)
 
Posts: 1887
Joined: 19 May 2011, 11:58
Location: Kaohsiung
72 Recommends(s)
132 Recognized(s)



Re: Years later where is the evidence that keeping foreigners out of Kindergartens has helped students?

Postby Whole Lotta Lotta » 16 Mar 2012, 00:32

GuyInTaiwan wrote:
E04teacherlin wrote:I am not a racist. I just have nationalistic pride.


That's the problem there. Everyone in the West is a moral and cultural relativist these days. :cry:

There is nothing wrong with nationalistic pride. Heck, even I am proud of Taiwan or I wouldn't live here. The problem comes in when it creates an "us vs them" mentality towards foreigners. I am afraid that this law will allow it to permeate down to the kindergartens which is one place where it shouldn't be taught.
I also think one of the most patriotic things you can do for a country is to question it's government. What if you are afraid the government is taking the country in the wrong direction? Should you just roll over and play dead?
Tra, la, la, la, la, la, la, One banana. Two banana. Three banana. Four...
Forumosan avatar
Whole Lotta Lotta
Combat Zone Mama-san (zhànqū māma sāng)
Combat Zone Mama-san (zhànqū māma sāng)
 
Posts: 1699
Joined: 17 Jul 2006, 21:24
Location: Somwhere close to comfort and yet always too far away.
6 Recommends(s)
15 Recognized(s)



FRIENDLY REMINDER
   Please remember that Forumosa is not responsible for the content that appears on the other side of links that Forumosans post on our forums. As a discussion website, we encourage open and frank debate. We have learned that the most effective way to address questionable claims or accusations on Forumosa is by engaging in a sincere and constructive conversation. To make this website work, we must all feel safe in expressing our opinions, this also means backing up any claims with hard facts, including links to other websites.
   Please also remember that one should not believe everything one reads on the Internet, particularly from websites whose content cannot be easily verified or substantiated. Use your common sense and do not hesitate to ask for proof.
Next




Proceed to Living in Taiwan



Who is online

Forumosans browsing this forum: No Forumosans and 7 visitors

The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page -- ST AUGUSTINE