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why does everyone think taiwan is poor?

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Re: why does everyone think taiwan is poor?

Postby forealz » 24 May 2014, 07:06

headhonchoII wrote:It also has to be said that there are a lot of people on the breadline in Taiwan. Taiwan's incomes have fallen VERY far behind the other Asian tigers (3-6 X LESS than Korea/Japan/HK/Singapore),


a lot of institutions say that using per capita PPP is a more accurate gauge of income as it includes currency exchange rates and cost of living. the cost of living in south korea, japan, hk and Singapore are much higher there while in taiwan it's much lower. so your taiwan dollar goes much further in Taiwan. ppp income in taiwan is higher than japan and south korea. http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=tw&v=67

I know there are disagreements about per capita gdp vs per capita ppp. but whatever, im not a financial person. just going by what the experts say and some say ppp is more accurate.
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Re: why does everyone think taiwan is poor?

Postby headhonchoII » 24 May 2014, 08:51

forealz wrote:
Hokwongwei wrote:
forealz wrote:if every building was painted in taiwan and periodically cleaned and maintained


One: pa mafan
Two: It's hard to figure out who is responsible. I live in one of those old fashioned gongyus, and we have a total of 20 units in the building but no management. Who would I contact about painting? I could try to petition my neighbors, but if just one person disagrees, I could face legal challenges if I go ahead with it.



doesnt somebody own the building? contact the owner. why would the neighbors complain if they dont even own the building and just renting it? or are you talking about a condominium not a rental building? still, there is should be an owner or company who owns the building and is responsible for exterior/building maintenance. dont you guys have to pay monthly maintenance fees? the residential laws in taiwan are truly fricking strange. I would say even third world!! :loco:



For somebody who had a long time interest in Taiwan architecture I'm amazed you don't know that there is no single owner of Gongyu buildings, they are shared, the land is shared also.
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Re: why does everyone think taiwan is poor?

Postby headhonchoII » 24 May 2014, 08:54

forealz wrote:
headhonchoII wrote:It also has to be said that there are a lot of people on the breadline in Taiwan. Taiwan's incomes have fallen VERY far behind the other Asian tigers (3-6 X LESS than Korea/Japan/HK/Singapore),


a lot of institutions say that using per capita PPP is a more accurate gauge of income as it includes currency exchange rates and cost of living. the cost of living in south korea, japan, hk and Singapore are much higher there while in taiwan it's much lower. so your taiwan dollar goes much further in Taiwan. ppp income in taiwan is higher than japan and south korea. http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=tw&v=67

I know there are disagreements about per capita gdp vs per capita ppp. but whatever, im not a financial person. just going by what the experts say and some say ppp is more accurate.



PPP is only useful in some circumstances. At a certain low level of income poverty is poverty. Prices of basics become king.

In addition, if you can't afford a foreign holiday or a better car or to send your kid for an overseas education you can't afford it...full stop. A 100-200 usd a month saving might be okay in Taiwan but will be next to useless overseas. You become stuck in Taiwan or developing countries.

I hear this PPP argument a lot and its mostly bullshit promoted to make people feel better in places like Taiwan at their shitty wages.
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Re: why does everyone think taiwan is poor?

Postby rowland » 24 May 2014, 11:44

headhonchoII wrote:For somebody who had a long time interest in Taiwan architecture I'm amazed you don't know that there is no single owner of Gongyu buildings, they are shared, the land is shared also.


Tragedy of the commons. Socialism in action.

What would happen if somebody just decided to paint a building on his own initiative? Would he be charged with something? Who would be the plaintiff?

If no one is in charge, anyone can do anything -- or nothing. But the guy who bothers to do something gets to decide how it's done. You buy the paint, you choose the color. Or get creative. There's some cool street art in the Ximending area. Why not more of that? It would be an improvement.
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Re: why does everyone think taiwan is poor?

Postby Zhengzhou2010 » 24 May 2014, 11:55

headhonchoII wrote:
forealz wrote:
headhonchoII wrote:It also has to be said that there are a lot of people on the breadline in Taiwan. Taiwan's incomes have fallen VERY far behind the other Asian tigers (3-6 X LESS than Korea/Japan/HK/Singapore),


a lot of institutions say that using per capita PPP is a more accurate gauge of income as it includes currency exchange rates and cost of living. the cost of living in south korea, japan, hk and Singapore are much higher there while in taiwan it's much lower. so your taiwan dollar goes much further in Taiwan. ppp income in taiwan is higher than japan and south korea. http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=tw&v=67

I know there are disagreements about per capita gdp vs per capita ppp. but whatever, im not a financial person. just going by what the experts say and some say ppp is more accurate.



PPP is only useful in some circumstances. At a certain low level of income poverty is poverty. Prices of basics become king.

In addition, if you can't afford a foreign holiday or a better car or to send your kid for an overseas education you can't afford it...full stop. A 100-200 usd a month saving might be okay in Taiwan but will be next to useless overseas. You become stuck in Taiwan or developing countries.

I hear this PPP argument a lot and its mostly bullshit promoted to make people feel better in places like Taiwan at their shitty wages.


Agree that PPP can be incomplete. But am curious as to where the 3-6x figures come from. Per 2013 IMF data on Wikipedia, Taiwan is about $21K, SK is $24.3K, HK is $37.8K, JP is $38.5k, and SG is $54.8. Taiwan is low indeed, but doesn't seem 3 to 6x times lower. Am I misunderstanding?
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Re: why does everyone think taiwan is poor?

Postby Taiwan Luthiers » 24 May 2014, 12:10

The newer buildings have management companies where residents pay management fees for things like this, but the older ones that look like crap don't have it...
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Re: why does everyone think taiwan is poor?

Postby forealz » 24 May 2014, 12:12

Zhengzhou2010 wrote:
headhonchoII wrote:
forealz wrote:
headhonchoII wrote:It also has to be said that there are a lot of people on the breadline in Taiwan. Taiwan's incomes have fallen VERY far behind the other Asian tigers (3-6 X LESS than Korea/Japan/HK/Singapore),


a lot of institutions say that using per capita PPP is a more accurate gauge of income as it includes currency exchange rates and cost of living. the cost of living in south korea, japan, hk and Singapore are much higher there while in taiwan it's much lower. so your taiwan dollar goes much further in Taiwan. ppp income in taiwan is higher than japan and south korea. http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=tw&v=67

I know there are disagreements about per capita gdp vs per capita ppp. but whatever, im not a financial person. just going by what the experts say and some say ppp is more accurate.



PPP is only useful in some circumstances. At a certain low level of income poverty is poverty. Prices of basics become king.

In addition, if you can't afford a foreign holiday or a better car or to send your kid for an overseas education you can't afford it...full stop. A 100-200 usd a month saving might be okay in Taiwan but will be next to useless overseas. You become stuck in Taiwan or developing countries.

I hear this PPP argument a lot and its mostly bullshit promoted to make people feel better in places like Taiwan at their shitty wages.


Agree that PPP can be incomplete. But am curious as to where the 3-6x figures come from. Per 2013 IMF data on Wikipedia, Taiwan is about $21K, SK is $24.3K, HK is $37.8K, JP is $38.5k, and SG is $54.8. Taiwan is low indeed, but doesn't seem 3 to 6x times lower. Am I misunderstanding?


thank you for saving me the time, Zhengzhou2010!! I started to google research and was going to point that out to him, but i got too lazy and canceled it
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Re: why does everyone think taiwan is poor?

Postby headhonchoII » 24 May 2014, 12:18

Finance is one example, jobs in HK or Japan would definitely pay 3-6 times Taiwan, because they are international finance centers.

I would say 3 times Taiwan pay is about right for Korea and HK overall and more than 3 for Japan.

Remember graduates come out of college here earning 22k but in Korea it's 60-70k ntd with new graduates earning 85k in big companies as standard. Honhai on the other hand pays its new grad recruits 26k/mth.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/htm ... 00990.html
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Re: why does everyone think taiwan is poor?

Postby headhonchoII » 24 May 2014, 14:15

Zhengzhou2010 wrote:
headhonchoII wrote:
forealz wrote:
headhonchoII wrote:It also has to be said that there are a lot of people on the breadline in Taiwan. Taiwan's incomes have fallen VERY far behind the other Asian tigers (3-6 X LESS than Korea/Japan/HK/Singapore),


a lot of institutions say that using per capita PPP is a more accurate gauge of income as it includes currency exchange rates and cost of living. the cost of living in south korea, japan, hk and Singapore are much higher there while in taiwan it's much lower. so your taiwan dollar goes much further in Taiwan. ppp income in taiwan is higher than japan and south korea. http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=tw&v=67

I know there are disagreements about per capita gdp vs per capita ppp. but whatever, im not a financial person. just going by what the experts say and some say ppp is more accurate.



PPP is only useful in some circumstances. At a certain low level of income poverty is poverty. Prices of basics become king.

In addition, if you can't afford a foreign holiday or a better car or to send your kid for an overseas education you can't afford it...full stop. A 100-200 usd a month saving might be okay in Taiwan but will be next to useless overseas. You become stuck in Taiwan or developing countries.

I hear this PPP argument a lot and its mostly bullshit promoted to make people feel better in places like Taiwan at their shitty wages.


Agree that PPP can be incomplete. But am curious as to where the 3-6x figures come from. Per 2013 IMF data on Wikipedia, Taiwan is about $21K, SK is $24.3K, HK is $37.8K, JP is $38.5k, and SG is $54.8. Taiwan is low indeed, but doesn't seem 3 to 6x times lower. Am I misunderstanding?


Yes you are misunderstanding the difference between GDP per capita and average wages.

What is GDP?
It represents the total dollar value of all goods and services produced over a specific time period in a given economy

That's it. So forget about using GDP per capita sometimes. It's a flawed statistic that doesn't show how wealth breaks down in a given society. It's not directly related to average people's incomes. PPP is based on GDP figures so again, it can be pretty flawed as to get the real picture as to what is going on here.

Here's an article to get some idea of the situation on the ground.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesasia/ ... s-go-down/

It states that average earnings in the IT hardware sector are just 12,275 USD/year.

Taiwan has the highest number of millionaires per capita in Asia supposedly. That's because of low taxes, low costs, and low wages and a large number of small businesses. But it's also had stagnant wages for around 15 years now and most people have barely seen their pay budge in years. Nominal wages rose 0.9% a year from 2000 to 2010 with a sharp dip in 2008 due to the financial crisis. Meanwhile the average inflation rate was 1.1%, meaning that the average worker (not counting savings or other items) is worse off than 15 years ago!

Even worse, graduate starter pay levels dropped from 30k+ to 22k over the last few years.

That's very different than places like HK, Singapore and Korea where pay has increased fairly steadily over the last 15 years.

Go to this site to see some examples of historical salary changes over the last 15 years.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/hong-kong/wages

It also doesn't help that the NTD is consistently kept at such a low value against the USD to benefit exporters. Compare that to the Korean won which has been much stronger overall, but been allowed to float massively up and down over time as circumstances permit.

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... W&view=10Y
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Re: why does everyone think taiwan is poor?

Postby Icon » 24 May 2014, 14:34

Meanwhile, Taipei has the most expensive housing in the world

http://qz.com/212347/taipei-now-has-the ... -fix-that/
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