Do the Taiwanese have a Conscience?

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Re: Do the Taiwanese have a Conscience?

Postby tommy525 » 24 Jun 2012, 01:01

Im racist because I say that taiwan has a lot of beautiful taiwanese girls? Well then im racist. Not mentioning that I am planning on marrying an indonesian girl. lets not let facts get in the way of a good story. :loco:
'
because im half taiwanese i used to be "naturally friendly" and inviting of foreigners coming over for the taiwan experience.

now im not so sure. Now I think that many are ill suited to life on taiwan, perhaps even ill suited to even visit.

I definitely think individual mileage will vary greatly and no longer blanketly promote the rock for all.

now i tend to say , if it doesnt work out for you ,then exercise your right to dismiss yourself from the rock.

I have a personal attachment to the place as its where I was hatched and grew up. So i tend to be biased , even "racist" as some would say. :whistle:
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Re: Do the Taiwanese have a Conscience?

Postby finley » 24 Jun 2012, 23:11

I've never heard anyone deny it. But is the entire society complicit? Seems most have no say. It is appalling the way se Asian laborers are treated but i consider this an anachromism rather than an indication of where taiwan is and more omportantly where it is going.

It's also worth pointing out that many Taiwanese are equally appalled by (some of) their compatriots' bad behaviour: shite driving, burning/flytipping trash, beating their kids, gangs, petty corporate/political skulduggery, poisoning their neighbours' pets and general antisocial behaviour. As in any country, you get the dregs who haven't yet evolved beyond eating, humping, and scratching their ass, and you get a whole bunch of other people who think those people are the dregs. Which group you consider to represent the local "culture" depends on exactly where you're standing, I guess.
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Re: Do the Taiwanese have a Conscience?

Postby shawn_c » 25 Jun 2012, 04:08

finley wrote:
I've never heard anyone deny it. But is the entire society complicit? Seems most have no say. It is appalling the way se Asian laborers are treated but i consider this an anachromism rather than an indication of where taiwan is and more omportantly where it is going.

It's also worth pointing out that many Taiwanese are equally appalled by (some of) their compatriots' bad behaviour: shite driving, burning/flytipping trash, beating their kids, gangs, petty corporate/political skulduggery, poisoning their neighbours' pets and general antisocial behaviour. As in any country, you get the dregs who haven't yet evolved beyond eating, humping, and scratching their ass, and you get a whole bunch of other people who think those people are the dregs. Which group you consider to represent the local "culture" depends on exactly where you're standing, I guess.


Well, this is the thing that angers me most about Taiwan. Why doesn't anyone do anything about this ill behaviour?! Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?!?!?!?!
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Re: Do the Taiwanese have a Conscience?

Postby funkymonkey » 25 Jun 2012, 11:13

shawn_c wrote:
finley wrote:
I've never heard anyone deny it. But is the entire society complicit? Seems most have no say. It is appalling the way se Asian laborers are treated but i consider this an anachromism rather than an indication of where taiwan is and more omportantly where it is going.

It's also worth pointing out that many Taiwanese are equally appalled by (some of) their compatriots' bad behaviour: shite driving, burning/flytipping trash, beating their kids, gangs, petty corporate/political skulduggery, poisoning their neighbours' pets and general antisocial behaviour. As in any country, you get the dregs who haven't yet evolved beyond eating, humping, and scratching their ass, and you get a whole bunch of other people who think those people are the dregs. Which group you consider to represent the local "culture" depends on exactly where you're standing, I guess.


Well, this is the thing that angers me most about Taiwan. Why doesn't anyone do anything about this ill behaviour?! Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?!?!?!?!

You wouldn't want them to lose face, would you? :noway:
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Re: Do the Taiwanese have a Conscience?

Postby finley » 25 Jun 2012, 11:21

shawn_c wrote:Well, this is the thing that angers me most about Taiwan. Why doesn't anyone do anything about this ill behaviour?! Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?!?!?!?!

Yeah ... there is that. Have a look at this: Fines levied for improper disposal of sandbags
The headline is actually misleading. Absolutely nobody is being fined. The fine is a purely theoretical concept, like the Higgs boson - people assume it exists, but it doesn't impinge on their everyday lives. Basically, I think the biggest reason for this sort of thing is the "don't cause trouble" culture. "Causing trouble" really equates to not pointing out when someone else is doing something wrong, because that causes them to lose face, which is, like, um, bad, mmkay? That removes two huge engines that normally drive social change: 1) disapproval of one's peers, followed by shame and self-correction; and 2) since pointing out wrongdoing is the entire basis of the law and the police force, those institutions don't have their intended function in Taiwan.
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Re: Do the Taiwanese have a Conscience?

Postby shawn_c » 25 Jun 2012, 14:10

funkymonkey wrote:
shawn_c wrote:
finley wrote:
I've never heard anyone deny it. But is the entire society complicit? Seems most have no say. It is appalling the way se Asian laborers are treated but i consider this an anachromism rather than an indication of where taiwan is and more omportantly where it is going.

It's also worth pointing out that many Taiwanese are equally appalled by (some of) their compatriots' bad behaviour: shite driving, burning/flytipping trash, beating their kids, gangs, petty corporate/political skulduggery, poisoning their neighbours' pets and general antisocial behaviour. As in any country, you get the dregs who haven't yet evolved beyond eating, humping, and scratching their ass, and you get a whole bunch of other people who think those people are the dregs. Which group you consider to represent the local "culture" depends on exactly where you're standing, I guess.


Well, this is the thing that angers me most about Taiwan. Why doesn't anyone do anything about this ill behaviour?! Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?!?!?!?!

You wouldn't want them to lose face, would you? :noway:


Yes, I would love them to lose face! Damn this face. I've seen parents/teachers pound this concept into their children as early as preschool! FFS.

finley wrote:
shawn_c wrote:Well, this is the thing that angers me most about Taiwan. Why doesn't anyone do anything about this ill behaviour?! Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?!?!?!?!

Yeah ... there is that. Have a look at this: Fines levied for improper disposal of sandbags
The headline is actually misleading. Absolutely nobody is being fined. The fine is a purely theoretical concept, like the Higgs boson - people assume it exists, but it doesn't impinge on their everyday lives. Basically, I think the biggest reason for this sort of thing is the "don't cause trouble" culture. "Causing trouble" really equates to not pointing out when someone else is doing something wrong, because that causes them to lose face, which is, like, um, bad, mmkay? That removes two huge engines that normally drive social change: 1) disapproval of one's peers, followed by shame and self-correction; and 2) since pointing out wrongdoing is the entire basis of the law and the police force, those institutions don't have their intended function in Taiwan.


But, doesn't shame come in the form of not wanting to lose face (especially for your family), therefore the disincentive to do anything wrong. Well, I guess it's not most people that do anything wrong... just a couple of douchebags... therefore, your theory is correct.

The police here need to get more cojones!!! Maybe the government is afraid of even hinting martial law, which is why the police don't have as much power as they did in the past...
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Re: Do the Taiwanese have a Conscience?

Postby sandman » 25 Jun 2012, 14:23

When I read that I remembered an incident a couple of years ago where a really old lady was crossing a busy road in Nankan (3 lanes either direction) on her hands and knees! There were massive trucks bearing down on her, and the drivers just angrily leaned on their air horns. The scooters just kept weaving around her on either side so she could neither finish crossing nor retreat to the central divider. This poor woman was just cowering there completely overwhelmed by what was happening. Eventually a cop sauntered over and tried to help the woman cross, but she was catatonic and refused to budge from the foetal position she was in.

God! That's horrible! Haven't seen anything like that except one time on the outskirts of Edinburgh. And it was cars, not scooters.
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Re: Do the Taiwanese have a Conscience?

Postby finley » 25 Jun 2012, 14:44

But, doesn't shame come in the form of not wanting to lose face (especially for your family), therefore the disincentive to do anything wrong.

I get the feeling "face" doesn't work like that. "Face" is the nearest equivalent English word, but it's really not correct.

In many cultures, shame (or the fear of shame) is essentially a positive thing. It acts as a personal restraint, making sure bad things don't happen, or happen less often. Or, if after the fact, shame can lead to reconciliation.

There are two big differences in Taiwan. Firstly, shame is considered an entirely negative emotion. To cause someone to feel shame (ie., to "lose face") is a terrible insult to that person, regardless of whether he should feel shame, because the connection between shame and social (or personal) improvement does not exist. In other words, if you are made to feel shame, there is no way to relieve yourself of it; no 'redemption', if you like. So the shamed person lashes out, because they perceive that they are being hurt for no purpose. I sometimes wonder if this reaction stems from the 'self-criticisms' which were forced upon people during the Cultural Revolution. Secondly, doing something wrong does not make you lose face, because while shame is personal, losing face is an external thing; it's something that's done to you, rather than something that happens inside your head. So only getting caught makes you lose face. Obviously, that isn't an exclusively Chinese phenomenon, but I think the culture here does something to encourage it.

Just my daily dose of pop psychology. Could all be bollocks, of course. I'm just trying to describe my personal understanding of what's meant by 'face' and '丟臉'.
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Re: Do the Taiwanese have a Conscience?

Postby photi » 25 Jun 2012, 16:02

Here are two simplistic charts that pose the difference between shame and guilt cultures: http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/shame_guilt.htm

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Re: Do the Taiwanese have a Conscience?

Postby shawn_c » 27 Jun 2012, 00:35

finley wrote:
But, doesn't shame come in the form of not wanting to lose face (especially for your family), therefore the disincentive to do anything wrong.

I get the feeling "face" doesn't work like that. "Face" is the nearest equivalent English word, but it's really not correct.

In many cultures, shame (or the fear of shame) is essentially a positive thing. It acts as a personal restraint, making sure bad things don't happen, or happen less often. Or, if after the fact, shame can lead to reconciliation.

There are two big differences in Taiwan. Firstly, shame is considered an entirely negative emotion. To cause someone to feel shame (ie., to "lose face") is a terrible insult to that person, regardless of whether he should feel shame, because the connection between shame and social (or personal) improvement does not exist. In other words, if you are made to feel shame, there is no way to relieve yourself of it; no 'redemption', if you like. So the shamed person lashes out, because they perceive that they are being hurt for no purpose. I sometimes wonder if this reaction stems from the 'self-criticisms' which were forced upon people during the Cultural Revolution. Secondly, doing something wrong does not make you lose face, because while shame is personal, losing face is an external thing; it's something that's done to you, rather than something that happens inside your head. So only getting caught makes you lose face. Obviously, that isn't an exclusively Chinese phenomenon, but I think the culture here does something to encourage it.

Just my daily dose of pop psychology. Could all be bollocks, of course. I'm just trying to describe my personal understanding of what's meant by 'face' and '丟臉'.


Great analysis... this seems to be it.

photi wrote:Here are two simplistic charts that pose the difference between shame and guilt cultures: http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/shame_guilt.htm


Holy shit... Taiwanese (Chinese) culture is a shame culture (thanks for the awesome read, photi... kinda makes me want to go back to university). Here are some relevant ideas about shame culture for everyone too lazy to read the article (but, please do look at the charts, at least):

- Shame culture appears to give people the licence to engage in secret wrong-doing... because if nobody finds out, you are not shamed (as finley pointed out).
- Suspicion becomes sufficient to convict in judicial terms... this happens all the time in Taiwan.
- Psychologically, guilt is proclaimed to be a more "advanced" emotion than shame: Erikson's popular model of personality development sees the emergence of basic shame as part of the second stage in the growth of the ego, but guilt as the third. (European and North American cultures are guilt cultures, although shame is practised within families and small social circles.)

Holy shit, finley, you discovered this on your own!
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