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Being able to vote and racism

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Re: Being able to vote and racism

Postby Icon » 11 Nov 2015, 10:20

We have the Syndicate of Foreign Girlfriends and Wives of Taiwanese Men. Cheaters are most distressed about it.
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Re: Being able to vote and racism

Postby MikeN » 11 Nov 2015, 21:41

Sometimes it takes a while to fully establish a nation. When I went to school (admittedly a long time ago) we played "God Save the Queen" on alternate days with "O Canada"; both the old Canadian (pre-maple leaf) flag and the Union Jack were in most official displays, including on municipal, provincial, and federal buildings- and any attempt to change it was met with screams of outrage from the oldsters about catering to the damn Frogs in Quebec. There were special dispensations under which Brits found it easier to become Canadian residents and citizens; my first passport stated on the opening page "A Canadian Citizen is a British Subject".
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Re: Being able to vote and racism

Postby Novaspes » 11 Nov 2015, 22:17

afterspivak wrote:Most Taiwanese I talk to are genuinely shocked to learn I cannot vote. I don't think most people out there are trying to keep us down and disenfranchised.

Guy


The same happened to me. My colleagues were shocked to learn a few months ago that I cannot (and never could) vote in Taiwan.
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Re: Being able to vote and racism

Postby sewersquid » 13 Nov 2015, 12:02

OP needs to understand the concept of how a country becomes a nation-state.
Countries like Germany, France and UK have different concept of nationalism with countries like USA, Australia or Canada.
Not to mention compared with countries like Taiwan (ROC, officially) or Japan.

In USA, Australia, Switzerland, New Zealand or Canada (an Asian parallel would be Singapore and Indonesia), since the beginning (at least after the WWII), becoming a citizen is matter where you were born (at the most important). In nationality law, it's called ius soli. You are where you were born. If you were born there or if you naturalized, you're officially equal. The common theme here is the nation formed from multiculturalism/immigration/fusion of different kind of people.
In Germany, France and UK, recently (after the Cold War ended), they start changing from blood-right to birth-right.
In countries like Japan, China, Taiwan (ROC), both Koreas or even Malaysia (European parallel would be Russia), the nationality law using the concept of blood-right. You are where your ancestors come from. It's called ius sanguinis. Naturalization doesn't mean necessarily mean you're equal. The common theme here is the nation formed from people from same race.

The concept of ROC nation-state is (Chinese) nationalism, like it or not, that's the way it is. Unless there's an amendment in the constitution, it will stay that way.
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Re: Being able to vote and racism

Postby headhonchoII » 13 Nov 2015, 14:01

There's already been many amendments to the citizenship law, for instance before citizenship was inherited from the father only. So there's no reason to think it cannot be amended again in future. Now the main obstacle to gaining citizenship is the requirement to forego your original citizenship. Just change that single rule and it would not be a big problem. So you see 100,000s of foreign wives from SEA and China can get citizenship here mainly because they don't care so much about abandoning their original citizenship. In summary, yes these is some discrimination against non Chinese for sure, but it is not the main barrier to residents acquiring citizenship.
Now the main determinant of citizenship here in Taiwan is whether one of your parents has Taiwan citizenship and has a hukou to link to.


Also most countries just like Taiwan have a mix of rights ascribed from parentage and where you were born. Many countries used to give it automatically to babies who were born in the territory but now the US is an outlier in that regard.
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Re: Being able to vote and racism

Postby Mucha Man » 13 Nov 2015, 18:35

sewersquid wrote:OP needs to understand the concept of how a country becomes a nation-state.
Countries like Germany, France and UK have different concept of nationalism with countries like USA, Australia or Canada.
Not to mention compared with countries like Taiwan (ROC, officially) or Japan.

In USA, Australia, Switzerland, New Zealand or Canada (an Asian parallel would be Singapore and Indonesia), since the beginning (at least after the WWII), becoming a citizen is matter where you were born (at the most important). In nationality law, it's called ius soli. You are where you were born. If you were born there or if you naturalized, you're officially equal. The common theme here is the nation formed from multiculturalism/immigration/fusion of different kind of people.
In Germany, France and UK, recently (after the Cold War ended), they start changing from blood-right to birth-right.
In countries like Japan, China, Taiwan (ROC), both Koreas or even Malaysia (European parallel would be Russia), the nationality law using the concept of blood-right. You are where your ancestors come from. It's called ius sanguinis. Naturalization doesn't mean necessarily mean you're equal. The common theme here is the nation formed from people from same race.

The concept of ROC nation-state is (Chinese) nationalism, like it or not, that's the way it is. Unless there's an amendment in the constitution, it will stay that way.


This is overstated. The concept of Chinese nationalism as the foundation of the roc state is decades out of date.

And constitutional changes are not a subset of Zeno's paradox. They do happen.

Anyway, Tsai has stated many times that citizenship should not be based on race so the future doesn't look good for race based nationalism.
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

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Re: Being able to vote and racism

Postby Alias1983 » 14 Nov 2015, 16:08

The only thing that xould possibly justify spouses from China being able to vote in Taiwan without being ROC citizens would be that they come from a geographical territory which the ROC constitution claims sovereignty over. But if that's the case, that should involve Mongolia and other non PRC territories the ROC constitution claims sovereignty over.

Then again, I'm surprised to learn you don't need to be an ROC citizen to vote in Taiwan. Just married for 4 years and an ID card. If taipeitimes made a big thing out of the MRT racist incident, they should make a big thing out of the fact that foreigners from western countries who been in Taiwan married for 4 years should be able to vote without having to be a citizen. If the chinese can do it but we can't that also somehow implies that Taiwan and China are somehow the same country.

In any case, it's unfair for us. And if you don't need to be an ROC citizen to vote, I say let's petition taipeitimes.com and other medias to make a big thing out of it. Foreigners should fight for their rights.

Oh and sewersquid, the concept of nationalism in Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and China are simply this. They take great pride in their skin color and they believe that defines who they are (well okay not all of them obviously). But one of the ground foundational root beliefs they have which they base their society on is that foreigners don't belong. Clearly there are some odd few locals who don't feel that way, but the belief they have that we don't belong seems to be one of the strongest roots of their nationalism.
Mucha Man wrote:Anyway, Tsai has stated many times that citizenship should not be based on race so the future doesn't look good for race based nationalism.

I hope she wins.
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Re: Being able to vote and racism

Postby hsinhai78 » 14 Nov 2015, 17:59

Alias1983 wrote:The only thing that xould possibly justify spouses from China being able to vote in Taiwan without being ROC citizens would be that they come from a geographical territory which the ROC constitution claims sovereignty over. But if that's the case, that should involve Mongolia and other non PRC territories the ROC constitution claims sovereignty over.

Then again, I'm surprised to learn you don't need to be an ROC citizen to vote in Taiwan. Just married for 4 years and an ID card.


1. All PRC nationals are ROC nationals.
2. Civic rights and duties for ROC nationals are tied to household registration in the "Free Area" (i.e. Taiwan proper, Penghu, Fujian Province of ROC).

Therefore, for Mainland spouses naturalisation is not necessary, instead they establish household registration. However for a Mainlander, this is a process far more complicated than for a foreigner naturalising and establishing household registration.

Obviously, upon establishing household registration in the Free Area, these Mainland spouses lose household registration in Mainland China.
I do not quite understand where this constant confusion about Chinese spouses comes from...
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Re: Being able to vote and racism

Postby hansioux » 18 Nov 2015, 09:32

Image

saw this chart...
Don't confuse me with your reasonableness.
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Re: Being able to vote and racism

Postby Icon » 18 Nov 2015, 12:30

Another example of mess up regarding Chinese spouses:

Taipei, Nov. 17 (CNA) The Ministry of Education (MOE) is seeking a solution that will allow children born to Chinese spouses of Taiwanese nationals from their previous marriage to non-Taiwanese to stay in Taiwan until they finish their university education here, instead of the age of 20, an MOE official said Tuesday.

"It is out of humanitarian considerations" that the ministry are seeking ways to free such foreigners from having to suspend their university studies in Taiwan and leave the country once they turn 20, if they do not obtain residency, said Lu Chih-min (劉智敏), a senior executive officer at the MOE's Department of International and Cross-Strait Education.

He was responding to a protest by new immigrants at the MOE earlier in the day, who called for the relaxation of the relevant regulations.

Under the Act Governing Relations between the People of the Taiwan Area and the Mainland Area, the children of mainland Chinese spouses from their previous marriage to a non-Taiwanese national can stay or reside in Taiwan until they are 20 years old on a family reunion visa, according to Liu.

However, if such persons fail to obtain residency before they turn 20 and they are in the middle of a university education in Taiwan, they will have to quit their studies and leave the country.

To help such students solve this predicament, most universities would allow them to apply for a temporary suspension of schooling, and then let them come back to finish their studies after they acquire residency, Liu said.

While the immigration authorities insist the age limit must be maintained, the MOE is brainstorming on a way that will allow this special group of students to finish their university education in Taiwan without disruption, he said.

Liu estimated there are now less than 1,000 Chinese teenagers in Taiwan who may encounter this problem in the near future.


That said, I do believe all children of an ROC resident should be able to stay in Taiwan as the (economic( dependents they are until they finish college -at least- or further like 25 years old -as they might be able to stand on their own two feet financially at that time, one hopes- or more if finishing a higher degree -like the Taiwanese do when they try to avoid conscription! Goose, gander...

And since we are at it, please extend those privileges to our elderly parents -put a minimum "deposit" if you'd like, if you fear our parents will become a "burden" -which by all technicalities they cannot but anyways. Ask, give a number, 3 million ntd or so as a guarantee. Heck, my mother's pension is higher than my salary and she has her own home. Plus she's a shopaholic, would be a welcome addition to this economy.
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