The Trayvon Martin Clusterf*ck

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Re: The Trayvon Martin Clusterf*ck

Postby JMcNeill » 29 Apr 2012, 23:23

I'm not sure why I even bothered responding to this thread. Everyone already has their own version of the facts and aren't willing to see the other side of the argument.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin Clusterf*ck

Postby Homey » 29 Apr 2012, 23:39

I honestly don't care too much for the speculation and "witness" that may also have a strong bias against blacks. It's understandable that Zimmerman and others living there have a dislike of black males, since most all the crime seems to have been committed by black males.

What matters in my mind are the facts.

The police video tape is fact. Tigerman you really should take a look at this. It does exist and despite it disproving the injuries and Zimmerman's story, it is a fact.

The 911 transcript is fact.

Zimmerman following Martin is fact. Despite lame attempts to lie about this, we all know that this incident never would have happened if Zimmerman just called police to report Martin for the crime non-crime of "walking while black" then continued on his way. He followed Martin, this is fact.

The lack of x-ray's or hospital records proving a broken nose and concussion or other damage is fact. The EMT's on the scene let Zimmerman go without further treatment for a reason. This is fact. If there were hospital records from that night, that would also be a fact in my mind.

What Zimmerman says, what his buddy says, what anyone else says about the events don't mean a lot. Zimmerman made sure that "this one didn't get away" and Martin is not around to tell his side of the story. I've lived long enough to know that every story has at least two sides. Hearing only one side is essentially meaningless.

The precedent likely being set here is that it's ok to follow and murder, as long as you claim self defense and kill the guy so he cannot tell his side of the story. To most logical compassionate people with an ounce of common sense this is a very dangerous precedent. The haters among us will have a perfect blueprint for "justified murder" of anyone they don't like.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin Clusterf*ck

Postby bob » 29 Apr 2012, 23:40

Tigerman wrote: Maybe GZ was able at the time to resist some of the force used by TM to pound his head against the sidewalk. But, maybe GZ felt his neck muscles tiring. Maybe he felt that he would soon be unable to resist TM's force?


Or maybe TM scratched him. Is it possible that, given that he was not considered the victim of a crime at that point, that they could have disposed of his body without checking under his fingernails?

(Actually, as interesting as this is, I am beginning to think that we might as well wait for the trial. We are just guessing at too much stuff now.)
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Re: The Trayvon Martin Clusterf*ck

Postby Tigerman » 30 Apr 2012, 00:07

Homey wrote:I honestly don't care too much for the speculation and "witness" that may also have a strong bias against blacks. It's understandable that Zimmerman and others living there have a dislike of black males, since most all the crime seems to have been committed by black males.


There is nothing in any of the evidence I have seen that indicates that GZ has a dislike of black males. Nothing.

What matters in my mind are the facts.

Homey wrote:The police video tape is fact. Tigerman you really should take a look at this. It does exist and despite it disproving the injuries and Zimmerman's story, it is a fact.


The police tape, if its the one I saw, does not disprove that GZ had injuries on his face and the back of his head.

Fact: The police and EMT personnel indicate in their statements that GZ had a bloody nose and head.

Fact: The EMT personnel at the scene treated GZ's injuries.

Fact: A photo was taken of GZ's bloody head 3 minutes after the fight ended.

Fact: The police video was taken well after GZ's injuries were treated, and yet, we still clearly see one officer looking at the back of GZ's head (opinion: I doubt the officer was admiring the back of GZ's head).

Homey wrote:The 911 transcript is fact.

Zimmerman following Martin is fact. Despite lame attempts to lie about this, we all know that this incident never would have happened if Zimmerman just called police to report Martin for the crime non-crime of "walking while black" then continued on his way. He followed Martin, this is fact.


The fact is TM would be alive if GZ was never born. That doesn't mean that GZ is responsible for the altercation that took place between GZ and TM.

Homey wrote:The lack of x-ray's or hospital records proving a broken nose and concussion or other damage is fact. The EMT's on the scene let Zimmerman go without further treatment for a reason. This is fact. If there were hospital records from that night, that would also be a fact in my mind.


1. SO WHAT?

2. Are you certain there are no hospital records? I don't know. But, I also don't know that there are none.

Homey wrote:What Zimmerman says, what his buddy says, what anyone else says about the events don't mean a lot.


Of course it matters... :roll:

Homey wrote:Zimmerman made sure that "this one didn't get away" and Martin is not around to tell his side of the story.


TM is not around to tell his story. That doesn't automatically equate to GZ being guilty of 2nd. degree murder.

Homey wrote:I've lived long enough to know that every story has at least two sides. Hearing only one side is essentially meaningless.


So, in every incidence where self defense is claimed, we should do what, exactly?

Homey wrote:The precedent likely being set here is that it's ok to follow and murder, as long as you claim self defense and kill the guy so he cannot tell his side of the story.


Not likely.

Homey wrote:To most logical compassionate people with an ounce of common sense this is a very dangerous precedent.


Like I've been saying, the right of self defense isn't exactly a new idea. Its been part of western law since the Roman times.

Homey wrote:The haters among us will have a perfect blueprint for "justified murder" of anyone they don't like.


Without a doubt! :roll:
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin Clusterf*ck

Postby Homey » 30 Apr 2012, 00:30

The video tape doesn't show any sign of damage. Zimmerman must really be be superhero and have miraculous healing powers.

He started the confrontation by following Martin based only upon appearance without seeing any crime being committed. He then finished the conflict by killing him. Both are facts.

The 911 tapes paint a pretty good picture of Zimmerman's mind state and attitude, and carrying a loaded gun is also an indication of his future actions. You don't carry a loaded gun unless you are gong to use it.

If he was in such eminent danger from having a broken nose and head bashed against the concrete by someone who weighs much less than him, how in the world did he manage to get his gun and shoot Martin?

If his nose was broken and he suffered life threatening head injuries where are the x-rays? Where are the hospital reports? Instead we have a video that clearly shows nothing wrong with him.

I think there are surely many more pieces of evidence that none of us know about, but given what facts we do know it's quite obvious.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin Clusterf*ck

Postby flike » 30 Apr 2012, 00:38

The precedent likely being set here is that it's ok to follow and murder, as long as you claim self defense and kill the guy so he cannot tell his side of the story.

This the kind of comment I find most exasperating about this situation (and also a bit comical: it's all the silly leaps to goofy conclusions and the do-gooder tongue clucking got in even prior to a trial). Even smart guys like Martin Amis seem to want Zimmerman's head on a pike, even before he's tried.

Of course, what they really want is the US to ignore - or overturn if sniff we as 21st century citizens of the West must stoop to nit-picking - the 2nd amendment to the US Constitution. I think we all know THAT. :roll:
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Re: The Trayvon Martin Clusterf*ck

Postby Tigerman » 30 Apr 2012, 07:23

Homey wrote:The video tape doesn't show any sign of damage. Zimmerman must really be be superhero and have miraculous healing powers.


The video tape is not very high quality.

The EMTs already treated GZ at the scene. Treatment usually includes cleaning the wound/blood.

A broken nose does not always swell immediately, and the black eyes often do not appear immediately, either.

Homey wrote:He started the confrontation by following Martin...


No law against following TM the way that GZ did. No indication from the evidence that GZ was following TM at the time of the altercation.

Homey wrote:...based only upon appearance...


So what? GZ, as captain of the neighborhood watch saw an individual that he did not recognize walking around in the rain looking at houses.

Homey wrote:...without seeing any crime being committed.


So what? GZ, as captain of the neighborhood watch saw an individual that he did not recognize walking around in the rain looking at houses.

Homey wrote:He then finished the conflict by killing him. Both are facts.


In self defense.

Homey wrote:The 911 tapes paint a pretty good picture of Zimmerman's mind state and attitude...


Agreed. GZ seems concerned and a bit frightened of TM. GZ is asking for the police to come to the neighborhood. That's exactly what most people who intend to kill someone do, eh? Call the cops and ask them to meet you at the crime scene? Right... Got it!

Homey wrote:...and carrying a loaded gun is also an indication of his future actions. You don't carry a loaded gun unless you are gong to use it.


Nonsense. The vast majority of people legally carrying never use their gun in a confrontation/fight.

Homey wrote:If he was in such eminent danger from having a broken nose and head bashed against the concrete by someone who weighs much less than him, how in the world did he manage to get his gun and shoot Martin?


TM is apparently well over 6 feet tall. GZ is approximately 5'7". I guess you know nothing of either physics or fighting.

How did he manage to get his gun? Inconceivable, isn't it? :roll:

Homey wrote:If his nose was broken and he suffered life threatening head injuries where are the x-rays? Where are the hospital reports? Instead we have a video that clearly shows nothing wrong with him.


The video shows nothing clearly.

And what part of imminent do you not understand? Have you a dictionary nearby? Please take a look at the definition.

Homey wrote:I think there are surely many more pieces of evidence that none of us know about, but given what facts we do know it's quite obvious.


Agreed about the evidence. But, nothing is obvious.
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin Clusterf*ck

Postby zender » 30 Apr 2012, 11:55

I've got a few questions.

Remember the following exchange:
-----------------
These assholes they always get away.
Are you following him?
Yeah.
We don't need you to do that.
----------------
Is there standard 911 police dispatch protocol for this? From the tone of voice, the dispatcher clearly does not want Zimmerman to continue following TM. Yet, "We don't need you to do that" is not a direct command. Zimmerman could conclude that the police didn't NEED him to continue following, but that he was willing to go above and beyond his call as a normal citizen (possibly emboldened by his concealed weapon).

And about a minute before this when he was still in his car watching TM, did Zimmerman already have his handgun on him in a holster (just in case he'd run into that bad neighborhood dog that he'd gotten the gun for), or did he pick up the gun from somewhere in his vehicle and then get out of his car to follow TM?

Finally, one of the 911 calls that night was sent in by a woman, and from the start of the call, you can already hear the shouting and calls for help. It isn't until 35 seconds later that the gunshot ended things. 35 seconds is a long time in a fight, especially if you're on the bottom.

Did Zimmerman reach for his phone? Did Trayvon see Zimmerman's gun and grab for it? Who knows? Is that what Zimmerman is claiming?

Later on when the two met, according to TM's girlfriend, the conversation went something like,
TM: Why are you following me?
Zimmerman: What are you doing around here?

And maybe this was repeated a second round.

Does Zimmerman have the obligation (instead of answering a valid question with a question) to answer Trayvon?
"I'm captain of the neighborhood watch and . . . ""

I'm guessing that if he had done so, the rest of the story would have been quite different.

Also, how frequently are people arrested immediately after a situation like this?
Zimmerman was questioned after the shooting and let go according to the police because there was no "probable cause." Is this standard procedure? The victim was unarmed, underage, and had committed no crime at the time Zimmerman began following him. Zimmerman's story seemed to match the basic evidence the police found that evening, but it seems that some people are astonished that he was let go that evening rather than arrested. So, what's normal in these, albeit rare, circumstance? Do police usually arrest the shooter immediately, or wait a month or so?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin Clusterf*ck

Postby Tigerman » 30 Apr 2012, 12:07

zender wrote:Remember the following exchange:
-----------------
These assholes they always get away.
Are you following him?
Yeah.
We don't need you to do that.
----------------
Is there standard 911 police dispatch protocol for this? From the tone of voice, the dispatcher clearly does not want Zimmerman to continue following TM. Yet, "We don't need you to do that" is not a direct command. Zimmerman could conclude that the police didn't NEED him to continue following, but that he was willing to go above and beyond his call as a normal citizen (possibly emboldened by his concealed weapon).


I don't know about any protocol. However, it has been pointed out that this was not a 911 call but rather more of a non-emergency call on a different line. Two comments:

1. Yes, the dispatcher's words to me indicate more of a suggestion than any type of order or directive.

2. There is no evidence that I have seen that indicates GZ continued to follow TM after the suggestion that GZ needn't follow TM.

zender wrote:And about a minute before this when he was still in his car watching TM, did Zimmerman already have his handgun on him in a holster (just in case he'd run into that bad neighborhood dog that he'd gotten the gun for), or did he pick up the gun from somewhere in his vehicle, and then got out of his car to follow TM?


I don't think anyone other than GZ knows this.

zender wrote:Finally, one of the 911 calls that night was sent in by a woman, and from the strat of teh call, you can already hear the houting and calls for help. It isn't until 35 seconds later that the gunshot ended things. 35 seconds is a long time in a fight.


If one is being beaten, yes.

zender wrote:Later on when the two met, according to TM's girlfriend, the conversation went something like,
TM: Why are you following me?
Zimmerman: What are you doing around here?

And maybe this was repeated a second round.

Does Zimmerman have the obligation to (instead of answering a valid question with a question) to answer Trayvon?
"I'm captain of the neighborhood watch and . . . ""

I'm guessing that if he had done so, the rest of the story would have been quite different.


Obviously, if they had talked rather than fight, this tragedy would have been averted. We do not know, however, whether TM gave GZ an opportunity to reply (if TM indeed started the fight).

zender wrote:Also, how frequesntly are poeple arrested immediately after a situation like this?


I don't know. I would expect fairly often, if not usually.

zender wrote:Zimmerman was questioned after the shooting and let go according to the police because there was no "probable cause." Is this standard procedure? The victim was unarmed, underage, and had committed no crime at the time Zimmerman began following him. Zimmerman's story seemed to match the basic evidence the police found that evening, but it seems that some people are astonished that he was let go that evening rather than arrested. So, what's normal in these, albeit rare, circumstance? Do police usually arrest the shooter immediately, or wait a month or so?


I think these are very good questions, and are being asked by many people. Its a 4th Amendment issue. The 4th Amendment states, regarding arrests:

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons …shall not be violated and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing … the persons … to be seized.”

I think the question in the current case obviously is whether or not there was any probable cause.
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin Clusterf*ck

Postby Mick » 30 Apr 2012, 12:18

zender wrote:Later on when the two met, according to TM's girlfriend, the conversation went something like,
TM: Why are you following me?
Zimmerman: What are you doing around here?

And maybe this was repeated a second round.

Does Zimmerman have the obligation to (instead of answering a valid question with a question) to answer Trayvon?
"I'm captain of the neighborhood watch and . . . ""

I'm guessing that if he had done so, the rest of the story would have been quite different.


I'm not saying that is not what happened, I don't know, but Zimmerman it seems recalls the confrontation differently, which is not to say that his version is what happened either.

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.

Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.

Zimmerman began yelling for help.
Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him with one blow then began hammering his head
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