Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby jdsmith » 27 Jan 2012, 13:39

Tigerman wrote:Libya militias, army torturing detainees...

Eh? Plus ça change?

Libya's regular army and array of militias have been torturing loyalists of slain dictator Moamer Kadhafi, several of whom have been killed in custody, human rights groups charged on Thursday. Amnesty International said that despite promises, Libya's new rulers have made "no progress to stop the use of torture", as Doctors Without Borders suspended its work in the third-largest city Misrata over similar claims.


We helped topple Gaddafi for this?


This is why New War doesn't work. It simply invites chaos. It's ALMOST stupid to say it invites chaos at no cost to the far superior military powers.

OT: I heard that Iraq was getting more dictatorial again...if it's true, thank god.
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Tigerman » 30 Jan 2012, 12:41

As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby TainanCowboy » 30 Jan 2012, 12:45



Send in the UN Peace keepers....that'll teach them to behave themselves!... :roflmao:
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby ChewDawg » 02 Feb 2012, 14:49

Why am I not surprised? :D Canadian expats behaving badly yet again! :lol: :lol: Trying to rescue a Gaddafi? :loco: :thumbsdown:

Globe and Mail wrote:Cynthia Vanier, a Canadian being held in Mexico since last fall over an alleged plot to smuggle one of Moammar Gadhafi’s sons, is now formally facing charges.

Mexican officials have issued warrants for five people for attempted trafficking of undocumented people and organized crime, the Mexican attorney-general said in a statement on Wednesday.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... le2322617/
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Tigerman » 10 Feb 2012, 08:50

This from the New York Times:

Libya Struggles to Curb Militias as Chaos Grows

Chaos grows?

Where is the international community lending a hand?
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Tigerman » 17 Feb 2012, 17:45

Why Libya Is Becoming More Dangerous After Gaddafi's Fall

Say What!??? :eek: :ohreally: How can this be?

...dozens of well-armed militia groups operating across the vast country have slipped well out of the control of the nascent government in Tripoli, making the country ever more fractured as well as dangerous to ordinary Libyans attempting to adjust to the end of Muammar Gaddafi's 41-year dictatorship.




I thought they were all united, like, and revolutionizing for a shared purpose?

Libya has been flipped upside down, from a country where all power was in the hands of one man, Gadhafi, to one where it has been broken up into hundreds of different hands, each taking its own decisions.


In a chilling 38-page report published on the eve of the anniversary, Amnesty International describes a wave of terror and widespread abuse by militia groups, whose members in recent months have dragged hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Libyans from their homes or from roadside checkpoints into makeshift jails on suspicion of being Gaddafi sympathizers or having fought alongside the regime's forces during the civil war.


Yikes!

...militia groups... have now settled into semi-permanent power arrangements in areas across the country, with no signs of disarming.


:noway:

The AI report outlines the grim detentions in fairly close detail, adding to mounting evidence of abuse. In December, the International Committee of the Red Cross said it had visited about 8,500 prisoners in 60 detention facilities over the previous year. And in late January, Doctors Without Borders shut its clinic in Misratah after its staff treated 14 torture victims who had been taken to an interrogation center nearby.


Mass detentions? Torture? :eh: :doh:

Finance Minister Hassan Zaklam admitted that millions of dollars from Gadhafi family assets returned to Libya by European countries — a potentially key source of revenue — have flowed right back out of Libya, stolen by corrupt officials and smuggled out in suitcases through the ports.


Its a good thing we got rid of Gadaffi, isn't it! :ponder:
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Jaboney » 17 Feb 2012, 19:06

It gives me the giggles that you supported the war on Saddam but continue to pose as though this gets your knickers in a knot.
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Tigerman » 17 Feb 2012, 19:29

Jaboney wrote:It gives me the giggles that you supported the war on Saddam but continue to pose as though this gets your knickers in a knot.


Why?

You know the reason I am posting this. No contradiction on my part.

Didn't you complain about the mess the invasion of Iraq made in Iraq?
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Jaboney » 17 Feb 2012, 20:16

Tigerman wrote:Didn't you complain about the mess the invasion of Iraq made in Iraq?

Certainly. The invasion of Iraq made a mess of Iraq. Providing air support (and weapons and intel) to the right side ensured that a pre-existing mess in Libya was resolved in the least bad available manner.

Origins, costs and consequences all radically different.
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Tigerman » 17 Feb 2012, 21:44

Jaboney wrote:The invasion of Iraq made a mess of Iraq.


I'm sorry, but, that's just complete :no-no: . Iraq was already a big mess long before the invasion.

Jaboney wrote:Providing air support (and weapons and intel) to the right side...


The Islamist militia rebel groups? They're the right side? Based on what criteria? The militias are detaining, torturing, killing people left and right. Libya is a smoldering mess, NOW. There was no real reason to assist the rebel militias in a civil war in Libya. We didn't make anything better there.

Jaboney wrote: ...ensured that a pre-existing mess in Libya...


What pre-existing mess?

Jaboney wrote: ...was resolved in the least bad available manner.


So, if we assist in fanning the flames of a civil war and then pick a side to help, and then the country goes into the shitter, that's a least bad available manner? What action did you counsel for Iraq?

Jaboney wrote:Origins, costs and consequences all radically different.


Indeed... :lol:
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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