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Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Tigerman » 23 Feb 2012, 12:25

Gosh... the fun never stops.

So, it was a good idea to help these militias topple Gadaffi?
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Tigerman » 29 Mar 2012, 22:34

Libya remains unsettled. There are reports of fresh fighting among rebels, and of 70 deaths and another 150 casualties in the town of Sabha. This news comes after news of tribal clashes in southern Libya just a few days ago, where at least 30 were killed.

Libyans are still fleeing across the Med, and many are paying a terrible price for their efforts. And there are fresh reports of NATO failing to rescue distressed migrant boats.

Is NATO dropping the ball here? Gadaffi was an SOB, for certain. But, he was no threat to NATO nor to his own people, and then only when they rebelled.

So, now what? If, as the argument went, we had a R2P (responsibility to protect) when we thought Gadaffi was going to massacre the people in the rebellious city of Benghazi, what now is our responsibility?
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

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Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby headhonchoII » 29 Mar 2012, 23:02

Gadhaffi was no threat to his own people?

Right.

Now if you said things were better off overall under Gadhaffi you might have a point unless they can get their act together there, but a lot of this was going to happen anyway as Gadhaffi centralized all power through himself, there are no structures to bind the country.
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Tigerman » 30 Mar 2012, 12:01

headhonchoII wrote:Gadhaffi was no threat to his own people?

Right.


Like I said... Gadaffi was a SOB. But, he was not an immediate threat to the Libyan people until they rebelled. There are nasty, inept, corrupt leaders all over the world. But, we leave most of them alone. We chose to act in Libya. We encouraged the rebellion, which likely... arguably caused more loss of life and destruction than would Gadaffi putting down the rebellion have.

But, I'm not asking about or arguing that. I'm asking specifically... if we had a R2P before, what now is our responsibility to Libya?
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby bigduke6 » 30 Mar 2012, 12:31

Tigerman wrote:
headhonchoII wrote:Gadhaffi was no threat to his own people?

Right.


Like I said... Gadaffi was a SOB. But, he was not an immediate threat to the Libyan people until they rebelled. There are nasty, inept, corrupt leaders all over the world. But, we leave most of them alone. We chose to act in Libya. We encouraged the rebellion, which likely... arguably caused more loss of life and destruction than would Gadaffi putting down the rebellion have.

But, I'm not asking about or arguing that. I'm asking specifically... if we had a R2P before, what now is our responsibility to Libya?



I assume, you are referring to NATO? As a military alliance they would have no further responsibility. IMHO, they should not have got involved at all, as they did more worse than good.
This problem should now fall under the UN. The problem there is that the UN is the most useless, corrupt organisation on the planet, with zero power or credibility.
My god, look at the UN debacle with Syria.

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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Tigerman » 04 Apr 2012, 23:50

As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Tigerman » 21 Jun 2012, 16:48

As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby bigduke6 » 21 Jun 2012, 21:52

What the ignorant who love to shout democracy for all fail to often understand is that unfortunately, in many Arab countries a strongman is needed to keep the whole mess together.

There same people are the ones scratching their heads in bewilderment when it all goes to shit.

If this mess ever settles, which is extremely unlikely, with all the warring clans, blood feuds, warlords, religious extremists etc, the body count will make Gadaffi look like the tooth fairy.
Jesus Quintana: Let me tell you something, pendejo. You pull any of your crazy shit with us, you flash a piece out on the lanes, I'll take it away from you, stick it up your ass and pull the fucking trigger 'til it goes "click."
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Jesus Quintana: You said it, man. Nobody
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Mr.Lahey: The shitabyss!
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Mr.Lahey: Ah, fuck it.

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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Jaboney » 21 Jun 2012, 23:39

bigduke6 wrote:What the ignorant who love to shout democracy for all fail to often understand is that unfortunately, in many Arab countries a strongman is needed to keep the whole mess together.

Riiiight. The same excuse trotted out to defend dictatorships everywhere. Disproved, time and again.
Democracy is tough to get right. The process is messy, and frequently (nearly always) violent.
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby fred smith » 21 Jun 2012, 23:53

Where is the international community lending a hand?


Well the UN was at the lead heading BACK into Iraq until the first bombing... then, they all ran away despite being needed most and the last time that I checked the mandate was to resolve these types of conflicts... oh well... when the going gets tough the UN gets going... out the door.

Of course, the UN was the lead organization in setting up the Oil for Food program and we all know what a success that was. Why doubt its ability to deal with Syria and Libya? That is just wrong...
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