Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

[fred smith]

I assume, you are referring to NATO? As a military alliance they would have no further responsibility. IMHO, they should not have got involved at all, as they did more worse than good.

I wait breathlessly for the Left to organize and Code PInk to march and scream and protest the horrendous international law flouting actions of France and the UK in pushing to bomb Libya without 17 UN resolutions... Right now, concerned citizens are marshalling and marching all over Europe to protest this grave offense. Rascal is at the forefront of Forumosans calling for international law to be respected and for the UN to take suzerainty over these affairs...

[bigduke6]

Jaboney, what evidence do you have that the warring factions, being warlords, extremists, tribal, blond feuding etc etc etc, actually want democracy?
Have they declared this as there ultimate aim, or are they just looking to seize power for themselves?

Have they proved themselves to be any different from Gadaffi?

[bigduke6]

Jaboney, what evidence do you have that the warring factions, being warlords, extremists, tribal, blond feuding etc etc etc, actually want democracy?
Have they declared this as there ultimate aim, or are they just looking to seize power for themselves?

Have they proved themselves to be any different from Gadaffi?

[Jaboney]

Jaboney, what evidence do you have that the warring factions, being warlords, extremists, tribal, blond feuding etc etc etc, actually want democracy?
Have they declared this as there ultimate aim, or are they just looking to seize power for themselves?

Have they proved themselves to be any different from Gadaffi?

Don't need any evidence to that effect as they may not (likely won't) be the ones who forge a democracy.

What evidence is there that the generals/warlords/thugs in South Korea/China/Lebanon actually wanted democracy? Little to none.
And yet South Korea made the same transition as Turkey and the Philippines... as Thailand's making... as Burma's beginning to make.
The ROC made the transition after warlordism, losing a civil war, and decades of martial law.
Lebanon's been making a stumbling transition.

Democracies don't simply appear out of the air. The process of consolidation takes decades, blood, and a fair deal of economic development. Putting a cap in the last thuggish dictator's ass is only the beginning.

[Tigerman]

Democracies don't simply appear out of the air.

Aren't you the patient one? I don't recall you showing that sort of patience when GWB was talking about and acting to sow the seeds of democracy in the ME Region?

The process of consolidation takes decades, blood, and a fair deal of economic development. Putting a cap in the last thuggish dictator's ass is only the beginning.

No kidding? That's what GWB argued. but, back then, I recall your tune being a bit different:

A Very Strong dose of humility would also be a good place to begin. No more attempts to recreate an American-style democracy in the Middle East would be a good idea. I caught Kissinger on Charlie Rose a couple of days ago. His predicted outcome in Iraq: a low-level authoritarian regime, or civil war. Although he felt that the seeds planted would be hard to uproot, and may have long term value. Still, a lot of blood, cash, and political capitial has been spent plowing the sands if a new authoritarian regime or civil war is all that'll be harvested.

I see...

[Jaboney]

I see...

Obviously not.

Aren't you the patient one? I don't recall you showing that sort of patience when GWB was talking about and acting to sow the seeds of democracy in the ME Region?

Of course not. It was a stupid plan, ineptly executed, to little purpose, at great expense, for no compelling reason.

The process of consolidation takes decades, blood, and a fair deal of economic development. Putting a cap in the last thuggish dictator's ass is only the beginning.

That's what GWB argued. but, back then, I recall your tune being a bit different

Time for the annual hearing test?

A Very Strong dose of humility would also be a good place to begin. No more attempts to recreate an American-style democracy in the Middle East would be a good idea. I caught Kissinger on Charlie Rose a couple of days ago. His predicted outcome in Iraq: a low-level authoritarian regime, or civil war. Although he felt that the seeds planted would be hard to uproot, and may have long term value. Still, a lot of blood, cash, and political capitial has been spent plowing the sands if a new authoritarian regime or civil war is all that'll be harvested.

Iraq: Bad seed, bad harvest. Wasn't indigenous; wasn't necessary; wasn't well executed. Ridiculous legacy: shoe throwing reporters the just frosting on that half-baked horse shit cake.

Libya: indigenous; necessary; well executed. Still a field of brambles and weeds, but it's their mess, responsibility, and future. The legacy of the intervention is fewer bodies and less blood spilled than would have otherwise been the case.

Consider what was involved bringing outside forces into the two conflicts; consider the costs; consider how long it took to get out. Hardly comparable.

[Tigerman]

Libya: indigenous; necessary; well executed. Still a field of brambles and weeds, but it's their mess, responsibility, and future. The legacy of the intervention is fewer bodies and less blood spilled than would have otherwise been the case.

Consider what was involved bringing outside forces into the two conflicts; consider the costs; consider how long it took to get out. Hardly comparable.

Yes, I understand very well that in Libya we simply dropped bombs and started a civil war. I understand that none of our people were killed.

But, how/why was intervention in Libya necessary while intervention in Iraq was not necesary?

[Jaboney]

We started a civil war in Libya? Really?
Pretty sure it started in February, and intervention began in late March, when regime loyalists were poised to take Benghazi.

You know my arguments on the differences between the two interventions, and why the case for acting in one was compelling while the other was not.

[Tigerman]

We started a civil war in Libya? Really?
Pretty sure it started in February, and intervention began in late March, when regime loyalists were poised to take Benghazi.

You know my arguments on the differences between the two interventions, and why the case for acting in one was compelling while the other was not.

Just answer my question, please.

You stated that intevention in Libya was necessary.

I asked you why intervention was necessary in Libya, but not in Iraq. And not in Syria, either. Why not?

What made intervention in Libya a necessity? Its not like we've made things better there.

[Jaboney]

Just answer my question, please.

Sorry, can't today.
(As it happens, I'm editing a book on democratic consolidation and need to finish.)