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Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

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IP is the place for boisterous political discussion, but please remember, the Rules still apply, especially with regards to Personal Attacks. These and other inappropriate posts will be removed without notification.

Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby fred smith » 21 Jun 2012, 23:56

I assume, you are referring to NATO? As a military alliance they would have no further responsibility. IMHO, they should not have got involved at all, as they did more worse than good.


I wait breathlessly for the Left to organize and Code PInk to march and scream and protest the horrendous international law flouting actions of France and the UK in pushing to bomb Libya without 17 UN resolutions... Right now, concerned citizens are marshalling and marching all over Europe to protest this grave offense. Rascal is at the forefront of Forumosans calling for international law to be respected and for the UN to take suzerainty over these affairs...
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby bigduke6 » 22 Jun 2012, 08:01

Jaboney, what evidence do you have that the warring factions, being warlords, extremists, tribal, blond feuding etc etc etc, actually want democracy?
Have they declared this as there ultimate aim, or are they just looking to seize power for themselves?

Have they proved themselves to be any different from Gadaffi?
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby bigduke6 » 22 Jun 2012, 08:02

Jaboney, what evidence do you have that the warring factions, being warlords, extremists, tribal, blond feuding etc etc etc, actually want democracy?
Have they declared this as there ultimate aim, or are they just looking to seize power for themselves?

Have they proved themselves to be any different from Gadaffi?
Jesus Quintana: Let me tell you something, pendejo. You pull any of your crazy shit with us, you flash a piece out on the lanes, I'll take it away from you, stick it up your ass and pull the fucking trigger 'til it goes "click."
The Dude: Jesus.
Jesus Quintana: You said it, man. Nobody
fucks with the Jesus.

Mr.Lahey: The shitabyss!
Randy: Mr. Lahey, not another night of the shitabyss, please?!
Mr.Lahey: Ah, fuck it.

If you talk to god, you're religious. If god talks to you, you're psychotic.
Gregory House

I got me a dog and named her Mybitchniggaeater.
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Jaboney » 22 Jun 2012, 08:25

bigduke6 wrote:Jaboney, what evidence do you have that the warring factions, being warlords, extremists, tribal, blond feuding etc etc etc, actually want democracy?
Have they declared this as there ultimate aim, or are they just looking to seize power for themselves?

Have they proved themselves to be any different from Gadaffi?
Don't need any evidence to that effect as they may not (likely won't) be the ones who forge a democracy.

What evidence is there that the generals/warlords/thugs in South Korea/China/Lebanon actually wanted democracy? Little to none.
And yet South Korea made the same transition as Turkey and the Philippines... as Thailand's making... as Burma's beginning to make.
The ROC made the transition after warlordism, losing a civil war, and decades of martial law.
Lebanon's been making a stumbling transition.

Democracies don't simply appear out of the air. The process of consolidation takes decades, blood, and a fair deal of economic development. Putting a cap in the last thuggish dictator's ass is only the beginning.
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Tigerman » 22 Jun 2012, 10:33

Jaboney wrote:Democracies don't simply appear out of the air.


Aren't you the patient one? I don't recall you showing that sort of patience when GWB was talking about and acting to sow the seeds of democracy in the ME Region?

Jaboney wrote:The process of consolidation takes decades, blood, and a fair deal of economic development. Putting a cap in the last thuggish dictator's ass is only the beginning.


No kidding? That's what GWB argued. but, back then, I recall your tune being a bit different:



I see...
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Jaboney » 22 Jun 2012, 10:55

Tigerman wrote:I see...
Obviously not.

Tigerman wrote:Aren't you the patient one? I don't recall you showing that sort of patience when GWB was talking about and acting to sow the seeds of democracy in the ME Region?
Of course not. It was a stupid plan, ineptly executed, to little purpose, at great expense, for no compelling reason.

Tigerman wrote:
Jaboney wrote:The process of consolidation takes decades, blood, and a fair deal of economic development. Putting a cap in the last thuggish dictator's ass is only the beginning.
That's what GWB argued. but, back then, I recall your tune being a bit different
Time for the annual hearing test?


Iraq: Bad seed, bad harvest. Wasn't indigenous; wasn't necessary; wasn't well executed. Ridiculous legacy: shoe throwing reporters the just frosting on that half-baked horse shit cake.

Libya: indigenous; necessary; well executed. Still a field of brambles and weeds, but it's their mess, responsibility, and future. The legacy of the intervention is fewer bodies and less blood spilled than would have otherwise been the case.

Consider what was involved bringing outside forces into the two conflicts; consider the costs; consider how long it took to get out. Hardly comparable.
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Tigerman » 22 Jun 2012, 11:20

Jaboney wrote:Libya: indigenous; necessary; well executed. Still a field of brambles and weeds, but it's their mess, responsibility, and future. The legacy of the intervention is fewer bodies and less blood spilled than would have otherwise been the case.

Consider what was involved bringing outside forces into the two conflicts; consider the costs; consider how long it took to get out. Hardly comparable.


Yes, I understand very well that in Libya we simply dropped bombs and started a civil war. I understand that none of our people were killed.

But, how/why was intervention in Libya necessary while intervention in Iraq was not necesary?
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Jaboney » 22 Jun 2012, 11:32

We started a civil war in Libya? Really?
Pretty sure it started in February, and intervention began in late March, when regime loyalists were poised to take Benghazi.

You know my arguments on the differences between the two interventions, and why the case for acting in one was compelling while the other was not.
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Tigerman » 22 Jun 2012, 11:48

Jaboney wrote:We started a civil war in Libya? Really?
Pretty sure it started in February, and intervention began in late March, when regime loyalists were poised to take Benghazi.

You know my arguments on the differences between the two interventions, and why the case for acting in one was compelling while the other was not.


Just answer my question, please.

You stated that intevention in Libya was necessary.

I asked you why intervention was necessary in Libya, but not in Iraq. And not in Syria, either. Why not?

What made intervention in Libya a necessity? Its not like we've made things better there.
As it is, we seem to regard it as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has taken one side or the other. We regard it (in other words) as a positive objection to a reasoner that he has contrived to reach the object of his reasoning. We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.

From: All Things Considered - The Error of Impartiality
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Re: Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

Postby Jaboney » 22 Jun 2012, 11:52

Tigerman wrote:Just answer my question, please.

Sorry, can't today.
(As it happens, I'm editing a book on democratic consolidation and need to finish.)
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