My tram experience woman arrested

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Re: My tram experience woman arrested

Postby Cooperations » 02 Dec 2011, 14:55

GuyInTaiwan wrote:Cooperations: Hate speech is bullshit. If someone threatens to kill another person, it really shouldn't matter what, if any, conditions are attached to the target. Any threatening speech should all be treated the same. One law for everyone.
I guess we can agree to disagree. I think it's reasonable for people to assume that they can live out their lives and be protected from having to endure listening to people rant about the color of their skin. I agree that the law should be applied in all directions on this, making it a law that does truly apply to everyone.
Yes, she was causing a disturbance, but let's be honest about this, it's not about that. I lived in London. You can't take any thirty minute bus ride in London without half a dozen muppets causing a disturbance en route. Either clamp down on those people too or don't single this woman out.
You're ignoring the time, place, and manner part that Tigerman was just talking about. In this situation, people were there to ride a train, not to be harassed by some ignorant twat. They had no where to go. I see this as on par with "disturbing the peace" laws we have in the US. If you are engaging in behavior that serves no purpose but to bother people, I don't think it should be protected. A woman ranting at people because of their skin color and setting them out as targets of her "speech" is very different than being the 'victim' of loud kids, old men screaming on their cell phones, or whatever other peeves you may find on the tube. She was singling people out.

Since when did people have to say anything of substance for them to be allowed to say it? Christ, half the human race has nothing worth saying, but they say it anyway. If I got offended by every idiot I encounter, I'd be constantly offended.
That wasn't my point nor my argument. My point was that her speech seemed to serve no other purpose than to harass the people she was talking about. I think people should be able to discuss these things in a reasonable matter without being jailed.

So no, you're not all for protecting free speech. You're for protecting the right kind of speech, which is a very different thing. A great case for why Britain is becoming a giant nanny state.
I think everyone here is interested in protection the "right" kind of free speech. I don't see anyone here arguing that all speech is protected, especially "I will kill you." We just disagree on what the "right" kind of speech is.
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Re: My tram experience woman arrested

Postby Cooperations » 02 Dec 2011, 15:00

Tigerman wrote:
Cooperations wrote:...I heard her say "I will kill you" several times. That's not protected speech in any country that I'm aware of.


I didn't hear that. But, your right, I think. Its certainly not protected in the US.

Cooperations wrote:...The people on the tram couldn't go anywhere and had to suffer this woman's rants...


That's why we have time, place and manner restrictions in the US. However, in the UK, some guys were arrested for burning a Koran and posting the video of the burning on YouTube. I don't see why those Koran-burners should have been sanctioned. Its not like anyone is forced to suffer through a video posted on YouTube, is it?


I agree, the youtube case is a crock. I don't think people should be sanctioned, fined, jailed, etc, for speech that even the majority disagrees with. This seems to go beyond speech into harassment and verbal abuse-quite different.
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Re: My tram experience woman arrested

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 02 Dec 2011, 15:53

Cooperations wrote:
GuyInTaiwan wrote:Cooperations: Hate speech is bullshit. If someone threatens to kill another person, it really shouldn't matter what, if any, conditions are attached to the target. Any threatening speech should all be treated the same. One law for everyone.


I guess we can agree to disagree. I think it's reasonable for people to assume that they can live out their lives and be protected from having to endure listening to people rant about the color of their skin. I agree that the law should be applied in all directions on this.


No, you don't agree that the law should be applied in all directions on this because you have stated that you believe in hate laws, i.e. that those that target certain people should be punished additionally or more severely than those that target other people, or even those who don't express any reason at all for targetting another person. If the law were applied in all directions, any violent behaviour would be punished across the board regardless of anything else, and thus, there wouldn't be hate laws. Look at the logic of what you're saying. In case 1, you're arguing for punishment A. In case 2, you're arguing for punishment A + B. Not equal application of the law.

No, I don't think it's reasonable for people to assume they can live out their lives and be protected from having to endure listening to people rant about the colour of their skin anymore than it should be reasonable for anyone else to be protected from being "offended". Maybe I think certain political, religious, scientific or any other kinds of views are offensive. I think it's fucking insane that people can actually believe all sorts of stuff and express it in public. So what if my sensibilities are offended? These rants should be dealt with under disturbance of the peace, and where applicable, directly threatening people with violence (not just expressing a dislike of them).

Yes, she was causing a disturbance, but let's be honest about this, it's not about that. I lived in London. You can't take any thirty minute bus ride in London without half a dozen muppets causing a disturbance en route. Either clamp down on those people too or don't single this woman out.


You're ignoring the time, place, and manner part that Tigerman was just talking about. In this situation, people were there to ride a train, not to be harassed by some ignorant twat. They had no where to go. I see this as on par with "disturbing the peace" laws we have in the US. If you are engaging in behavior that serves no purpose but to bother people, I don't think it should be protected. A woman ranting at people because of their skin color and setting them out as targets of her "speech" is very different than being the 'victim' of loud kids, old men screaming on their cell phones, or whatever other peeves you may find on the tube. She was singling people out.


Again, so what? A disturbance is a disturbance. As for singling people out, where above did I say that other disturbances don't include those that single people out? Again, travel on public transport in London for a couple of days and every weirdo and psycho under the sun will single you and everyone else out just because they can, or just because you happen to be the unlucky person sitting next to them. I'm not saying this to justify what the woman did. I think it's a great indictment upon British (or at least London) society that every arseclown holds court with impunity, even when they are threatening others. I think it's a great indictment upon British society that ordinary people can't just ride the bus home after a long day of work and get some peace for a change. I hated commuting in London for this and many other reasons. It really wore me down. What I think is really hard about living in London, which I've never really encountered anywhere else in the world, is that in London, trouble finds you anywhere and everywhere and there's seemingly nothing you can do about it. There's a really weird sense of learned helplessness in London where everyone just shrugs their shoulders and sighs pathetically in resignation at the fact that their feral underclass act with impunity. At least in other places, you can generally avoid the bad parts of town and their residents, and in the instances when they do appear in more civil society and disturb it, no one puts up with it.

I have no problem with charging that woman for disturbing the peace or whatever the relevant law is called. My point was that they don't single out every other idiot though. This is not about that. It's political. The authorities have to be seen to be doing something in this case, especially since it went viral on the web. Meanwhile, feral youth and other miscreants hold everyone hostage. I worked in schools where kids regularly went on tirades that not only offended people or frightened them, but where the kids actually did try to inflict harm upon others. I had a kid throw a wooden door wedge at me one day. This whole thing about the bus is blown way out of proportion compared to some of the stuff that everyone complaining about it experiences on a daily basis and that doesn't get dealt with.

Since when did people have to say anything of substance for them to be allowed to say it? Christ, half the human race has nothing worth saying, but they say it anyway. If I got offended by every idiot I encounter, I'd be constantly offended.


That wasn't my point nor my argument. My point was that her speech seemed to serve no other purpose than to harass the people she was talking about. I think people should be able to discuss these things in a reasonable matter without being jailed.


Again, see my point above about all the loons on London's public transport system or in society at large generally. This is only the tip of the iceberg for the kind of anti-social behaviour residents (foreign or local) of London experience on a daily basis. Target it all as consistently as possible or this begins to look like a political crusade. I'd actually wager that if they clamped down on anti-social behaviour in general, even things that don't seem to be directed at anyone in particular (but still make public life really frustrating, threatening, etc.), this kind of idiocy would be far less likely to occur also. I don't see this as some special racist case that should cause a national outcry. I see this as London business as usual with the loons on parade. I just encountered way too much random bullshit from people to take this as representative of anything other than the state-sponsored feral underclass, which crosses ethnic bounds far more than this woman would like to admit, by the way.
And you coming in to scold us all like some kind of sour-puss kindie assistant who favors olive cardigans and lemon drinks without sugar. -- Muzha Man

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England. -- George Orwell
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Re: My tram experience woman arrested

Postby Cooperations » 02 Dec 2011, 16:43

GuyInTaiwan wrote:No, you don't agree that the law should be applied in all directions on this because you have stated that you believe in hate laws, i.e. that those that target certain people should be punished additionally or more severely than those that target other people, or even those who don't express any reason at all for targetting another person.
I do not think that the application of hate laws excludes the law being applied in all directions. If anyone, of any race, targets another person because of their race (regardless of what their race is), then the hate law is being applied fairly. If the law adds punishment for racial motivations, and is applied to anyone of any race on either side of the incident, it is being applied fairly. If the law said you can't harass black people, that would be unfair.

No, I don't think it's reasonable for people to assume they can live out their lives and be protected from having to endure listening to people rant about the colour of their skin anymore than it should be reasonable for anyone else to be protected from being "offended". Maybe I think certain political, religious, scientific or any other kinds of views are offensive.
What people believe is different from who people are. Using a racial slur is quite different than mocking a person's beliefs. If she would have got on a train and ranted against abortion, it would be hard to argue she was targeting anyone because she can't see people's beliefs. She got on the train, saw black people, and singled them out.

Again, so what? A disturbance is a disturbance.
The laws of most countries differentiate disturbances based on many factors. You are arguing that racist slurs in a public place where people really have no route of escape isn't one of them. I disagree.

I don't see this as some special racist case that should cause a national outcry. I see this as London business as usual with the loons on parade. I just encountered way too much random bullshit from people to take this as representative of anything other than the state-sponsored feral underclass, which crosses ethnic bounds far more than this woman would like to admit, by the way.
I agree. In general, the reason I oppose too many limits on speech is because what tends to happen is that problems just get swept under the rug and people hide their true feelings-the racism (or whatever 'problem') tends to be hidden instead of addressed. In this case, however, I think this woman's intention was to disturb, harass, and cause a nuisance based on race. She saw black people and set out to make them uncomfortable. Protecting free speech is important because we don't want to legislate what people think. I don't think the heart of this law is trying to change her. Call me an old fashioned American, but I like the idea of protecting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. When I weigh that in this case, I don't see that the nutter on the tram is being denied that by this law-but she is doing her best to deny it to others.

There tends to be, on the one hand, a group of people who are so sensitive to racial issues that they think everything should be regulated-that's not where I'm coming from. On the other end, there are people who think that any attempt to address racial problems through laws is unfair, reverse racism, etc. I'm not on that side either because while I know we can't regulate what people think or feel, countries should set some limits on what is acceptable and what is not in regards to behavior. The other problems you address in London could be addressed too-I'm not trying to downplay any of that. In fact, one of the reasons I like living in Taiwan is because I have to put up with none of that type of bullshit-violent kids, especially.

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Re: My tram experience woman arrested

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 03 Dec 2011, 08:30

Those are all reasonable points. I guess I don't make a distinction between someone ranting at someone with funny eyebrows or for wearing a red hat or anything else, as opposed to being of a particular ethnicity, whether the feature being singled out is a physical characteristic, a belief or anything else. I think a target of abuse is a target of abuse, but I understand why you think slightly differently on this matter.
And you coming in to scold us all like some kind of sour-puss kindie assistant who favors olive cardigans and lemon drinks without sugar. -- Muzha Man

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England. -- George Orwell

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Re: My tram experience woman arrested

Postby Tempo Gain » 06 Jun 2012, 02:14

Just noticed an update on this:

Tube-passenger-jailed-for-21-weeks
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Re: My tram experience woman arrested

Postby tommy525 » 06 Jun 2012, 03:05

She certainly doesn't sound like a person one would like to associate with.
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Re: My tram experience woman arrested

Postby Dog's_Breakfast » 06 Jun 2012, 08:43

I agree that the woman's behavior was racist and shameful. I'm not sure that justified 21 weeks in prison though.

A big problem I have with this case is that I do believe a double standard exists. Muslims wanted that drunk white woman arrested because her hateful speech made them feel very uncomfortable. That's understandable. But do they not think that the following is making non-Muslim UK citizens rather uncomfortable, and genuinely worried?...

As Islamic extremists declare Britain's first Sharia law zone...



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Re: My tram experience woman arrested

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 06 Jun 2012, 09:19

Or this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2070562/Muslim-girl-gang-kicked-Rhea-Page-head-yelling-kill-white-slag-FREED.html

Then there are the Muslim paedophile gangs raping white children, including one consisting of nine men who raped several girls. They were jailed from four to nineteen years, for a total of 77 years (an average of eight and a half years).

So, if you go on a racist rant on public transport, you get 21 months. If you kick someone in the head and rip out someone's hair, you get a suspended sentence of six months. If you rape a girl, you get 48 months. Sounds about right in the modern West.
And you coming in to scold us all like some kind of sour-puss kindie assistant who favors olive cardigans and lemon drinks without sugar. -- Muzha Man

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England. -- George Orwell
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Re: My tram experience woman arrested

Postby Dog's_Breakfast » 06 Jun 2012, 09:35

Maybe it's irrelevant, maybe not, but I'd like to link to a horrific video of what can happen to a Muslim who commits the crime of "apostasy" (leaving Islam). If you want to talk about a "hate crime" then this is the ultimate.

Please be warned, this video is extremely graphic. Don't watch on a full stomach. The first minute is a Muslim reporter talking in Arabic (I assume), but the horror begins after 1:18 minutes. Actually, you can just read the article and don't have to watch the video - the article itself is pretty interesting:

Tunisian Muslims Slaughter Convert
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