fred smith wrote:4. Given that it is the left that is bereft (rhymes, doesn´t it?) of traditional morality and Christianity, I saw an even closer tie to the moral and intellectual incoherence of the movement and Nietzsche´s views.
fred: Liberalism, socialism, whatever you want to call it has a clearly defined set of principles.
Some overlap with Christianity (but so do various other belief systems), some do not.
Liberalism is not about trying to be Christian without Christ.
That's massively overstating the role of Christianity in modern leftist politics. Leftist politics has evolved, just as you claim Christianity has.
Secondly, just because the average OWS participant is not an intellectual scholar of liberalism, socialism, whatever you want to call it, so what? The average Christian knows very little about the Bible and is not a scholar of Christianity.
In both cases, the average person has a vague notion of what the belief system advocates. This is probably true for any belief system. Yet you want to claim that this represents moral incoherence in one group, but not the other.
Also, there's a difference in kind between the questions "is murder okay?" and "how much tax is the right amount?" That's a large part of why the OWS movement are having trouble working out policies. They want the 1% to pay more tax.
This is not in dispute, despite what you may claim about no one knowing what they want.
Every time any one of them has been shown in the media, he or she has said that.
The problem lies in working out the particulars of an answer that is considerably more complex than a simple yes or no answer.
Likewise, the OWS protestors are annoyed at the fact that many of those on Wall Street were able to make their profits private whilst making their losses public, and a whole lot of sub-points to that.
That the average person doesn't quite know how to address this issue has less to do with a morally incoherent position and more to do with the fact that the regulatory codes in the U.S. have thousands and thousands of pages and the average protestor does not have highly specialised knowledge in the required fields.
Again, so what? This can be claimed about most belief systems we have as humans.
It is you who has an axe to grind here by ignoring these kinds of points that have already been mentioned by plenty of other posters already.
I don't even agree with them a lot of the time, but to claim that OWS doesn't even know what it's about is ridiculous.
fred smith wrote:
4. Given that it is the left that is bereft (rhymes, doesn´t it?) of traditional morality and Christianity, I saw an even closer tie to the moral and intellectual incoherence of the movement and Nietzsche´s views.
It is far from given. You have done nothing to prove that at all.
Right on! It's about time the people stood up for themselves! 40 votes or 48%
I think the protesters have some good points. 10 votes or 12%
I have mixed feelings about it. 6 votes or 7%
I think it's a waste of time. 9 votes or 11%
What a bunch of stupid lefty dorks! 13 votes or 15%
Oh alright, for pete's sake.
They are protesting at wall street because they "know" that it is wall street that corrupts the democratic process.
Don't you feel silly now?
And no, I am not likely to respond to whatever response I get here, not that it isn't totally stimulating and all that but because I have literally a broken back from working, and typing isn't exactly the best thing for it.
From the point of view of your demented little universe that will seem ironic for a moment probably.
Since the emergence of the Occupy Wall Street (OWS) movement a great deal of attention has been focused on establishing what this movement wants. To understand and get at this movement's demands, we asked the following open-ended question of respondents at three Occupy locations:
Question: "If you could enact ONE policy to address America's problems today, what would it be?"
To date we have asked this at the Occupy locations in New York (100 respondents - October 22-23), Boston (95 respondents - October 23) and Washington, D.C. (38 respondents - October 30). The responses to this question were recorded verbatim. As these interviews are part of an ongoing project to generate data on various Occupy locations, we present a summary of the key policies articulated thus far with the caveat that these results should be viewed as preliminary and suggestive rather than conclusive and representative of the entire Occupy movement.
A Note on Classification: To best capture respondents' vocabulary we have reproduced below the words they used to identify the "ONE policy" they would enact. We have grouped the key policies under general categories. In a number of cases respondents used different words to describe a similar policy, to the extent possible we have also reproduced the different ways in which they referred to a similar policy.
I. Policies to reduce/eliminate corporate influence in politics
Eliminate corporate personhood / End corporate personhood / Policy to separate corporations and people / Overturn Citizens United versus Federal Election Commission (2008 Supreme Court decision) / Repeal the decision that dollars equal free speech
Campaign finance reform / Election finance reform / Election Change / Campaign laws / Public financing of elections / Complete reform of elections
Get corporate money out of elections / Get dollars out of politics / End corporate support of politicians / Money in politics
II. Policies to reform the tax structure
Progressive taxes / Raise taxes on the rich / More taxes above a certain income level / Tax wealthy / Tax the upper classes more / Tax the rich / Raise taxes on income above US $200k / Tax higher incomes
Increase taxes on corporations / Make corporations pay their fair share of taxes / Taxing financial transactions
Reduce taxes / Decrease taxes / Tax relief
Eliminate tax loopholes / End tax loopholes
Tax reform / Change the tax code
Tax code that favors the middle class
III. Policies to create jobs
Jobs / Create more jobs / Program for full employment / Real jobs program / Universal jobs program / Move from unproductive job sectors / Organized discussion on jobs / Get American back to work / Putting people to work / Job plan / Obama's Job Plan.
IV. Policies related to healthcare
Universal healthcare / Healthcare / Healthcare policy
Single-payer healthcare / Single-payer
More sustainable healthcare
V. Policies related to the environment and energy
Eliminate use of coal
Decrease dependence on oil
Carbon free dividend system
VI. Anti-war policies
End wars / Stop the wars / Abolish war policy / End wars entirely / End United States' incursion in Iraq and Afghanistan
Stop sending soldiers / Bring half of our soldiers home by Christmas
VII. Policies to reform education
Education reform / Improve education / Serious overhaul of education
Debt forgiveness for student loans
VIII. Miscellaneous policies related to political economy
Jobs against outsourcing, make outsourcing illegal, make outsourcing costly, jobs staying in the US.
More equality / More equal distribution of wealth
End capitalism / Get rid of capitalism / Abolish capitalism,
Reinstate the Glass-Stegall Act / Re-regulate the financial system / Re-regulate the banking sector
Forgive loans and debts / Debt relief for individuals
Keynesian spending / FDR style New Deal
Invest heavily in public works / Public works / Build infrastructure
Employee's free choice act
IX. Don't Know:
Close to one fifth of all the respondents interviewed responded "Don't Know."
So what does the OWS Movement want? Our preliminary results suggest that the Occupy Wall Street movement has an array of political demands that are not very different from mainstream Americans. One things is for certain, there is a need for more data-driven analysis and less speculation with regard to the demands of this movement, especially as it continues to evolve.
Occupy Wall Street (OWS) is an ongoing series of demonstrations initiated by the Canadian activist group Adbusters which began September 17, 2011 in Zuccotti Park, located in New York City's Wall Street financial district. The protests are against social and economic inequality, high unemployment, greed, as well as corruption, and the undue influence of corporations—particularly from the financial services sector—on government. The protesters' slogan We are the 99% refers to the growing difference in wealth in the U.S. between the wealthiest 1% and the rest of the population.
The protesters targeted Wall Street because of the part it played in the economic crisis of 2008 which started the Great Recession. They say that Wall Street's risky lending practices of mortgage-backed securities which ultimately proved to be worthless caused the crisis, and that the government bailout breached a sense of propriety. The protesters say that Wall Street recklessly and blatantly abused the credit default swap market, and that the instability of that market must have been known beforehand. They say that the guilty parties should be prosecuted.
Some journalists have criticized the protests saying it is hard to discern a unified aim for the movement, while other commentators have said that although the movement is not in complete agreement on its message and goals, it does have a message which is fairly coherent. Douglas Rushkoff, writing for CNN, said that even though the protesters are not ready to articulate an exact array of problems or how to solve them. Anyone who says he has no idea what these folks are protesting is not being truthful. Whether we agree with them or not, we all know what they are upset about, and we all know that there are investment bankers working on Wall Street getting richer while things for most of the rest of us are getting tougher. What upsets banking's defenders and politicians alike is the refusal of this movement to state its terms or set its goals in the traditional language of campaigns...They mean to show that there is an inappropriate and correctable disconnect between the abundance America produces and the scarcity its markets manufacture.
The protesters want, in part, more and better jobs, more equal distribution of income, bank reform, and a reduction of the influence of corporations on politics. Adbusters co-founder Kalle Lasn has compared the protests to the Situationists and the Protests of 1968 movements. and addresses critics saying that while no one person can speak for the movement, he believes that the goal of the protests is economic justice, specifically, a "transaction tax" on international financial speculation, the reinstatement of the Glass-Stegall Act and the revocation of corporate personhood.
The General Assembly, the governing body of the OWS movement, has adopted a “Declaration of the Occupation of New York City,” which includes a list of grievances against corporations, and to many protesters a general statement is enough.
However, saying, "‘Power concedes nothing without a demand' " others within the movement have favored a fairly concrete set of national policy proposals.
One group has written an unofficial document, "The 99 Percent Declaration”, that calls for a national general assembly of representatives from all 435 congressional districts to gather on July 4, 2012, to assemble a list of grievances and solutions.[
OWS protesters that prefer a looser, more localized set of goals have also written a document, the Liberty Square Blueprint, a wiki page edited by some 250 occupiers and still undergoing changes.
Written as a wiki the wording changes, however, an early version read:
"Demands cannot reflect inevitable success. Demands imply condition, and we will never stop. Demands cannot reflect the time scale that we are working with."
The Guardian interviewed OWS and found three main demands: get the money out of politics; reinstate the Glass-Steagall act; and draft laws against the little-known loophole that currently allows members of Congress to pass legislation affecting Delaware-based corporations in which they themselves are investors. 
Forumosans browsing this forum: No Forumosans and 5 visitors