Che Guevara

IP is the place for boisterous political discussion, but please remember, the Rules still apply, especially with regards to Personal Attacks. These and other inappropriate posts will be removed without notification.

Moderators: Mick, TheGingerMan

Forum rules
IP is the place for boisterous political discussion, but please remember, the Rules still apply, especially with regards to Personal Attacks. These and other inappropriate posts will be removed without notification.

Che Guevara

Postby Ducked » 01 Mar 2012, 23:00

In another thread, TainanCowboy wrote:Ducked -
Thanks for clarifying the 'adult students' part - I did not see that.

As to:
In this context, for example, a CIA field agent comes a very poor second to a used-car salesman, objective truth expectation-wise.

The main contributor, who was personally involved in the Che issue, is a man named 'Felix Rodriguez.' His writing on the Che affair are well documented. Verification of its credibility have been long established.

As to:
I don't feel any particular compulsion to defend Che, but I can't tell them "THE truth" because I don't know it.

Well, the truth is out there. One can chose to make use of it or not.


Perhaps it is, but I doubt its always identifiable as such.

To take one small example, I quote from a declassified NSA document, here

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB5/che15_2.htm

"Despite their apparent status as Bolivian officers, [ ] said they never were given orders by higher-ranking Bolivian officers (One exception to this rule was the order which Colnel [ ] issued to [ ] on the day of Guevara's excecution, if [ ] story is to be believed."

This appears to be a reference to the senior CIA advisor giving/transmitting the execution order to the shooter, and that "if" suggests some reservations, quite proper for an intelligence analyst.

If one pokes around a bit (and I've only had time to do a very little reading so far) there are inevitably discrepancies in the various accounts.

History is written by the victors, especially if the vanquished are all...er....rather dead.
We reach for the sky. Neither does civilisation.

(Incidentally, if the search button is your friend, you must have some bloody useless, dysfunctional friends)
Forumosan avatar
Ducked
Overpaid Foreign Athlete (duō fù xīn shuǐ guò gāo de wài jí yùn dòng yuán)
Overpaid Foreign Athlete (duō fù xīn shuǐ guò gāo de wài jí yùn dòng yuán)
 
Posts: 3540
ORIGINAL POSTER
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 16:46
9 Recommends(s)
48 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: Che Guevara Material

Postby TainanCowboy » 02 Mar 2012, 10:39

Ducked -
Interesting document. My read on is that this explains the ambiguity that was desired for the operational effectiveness of the assignment.
Starting at #5, we see their introduction and given 'cover' as "experts on guerrilla warfare" along with handwritten doc's requesting full support from all civilian and military personnel. Later they were quartered in Bolivian Officers Quarters on a military base. This housing would be noticed and establish a lot of credibility among the troops as to their status. And frankly, they all knew what the mission was - remove the outside insurgent.

Later, in #6 - ;issued Bolivian Army uniforms and credentials as Captains but w/out rank insignias - this is known as a "cleaned uniform." SOP for a mission of this type. The American Ambassador has "plausible denial" as to their activities. No official docs to show his involvement - SOP.

Bottom line about Che' is that he was a murdering psychopath whose actions had caused even Fidel to want to get rid of him. His "assignment" to Bolivia was done for this reason. He got "The Good-Bye Look" from Fidel and his brother Raul because they knew his time as a benefit for 'La revolucion' was over. He was a tool, he was used and it was time to get rid of him.

Its the same story with these "revolutionaries" over and over. Cubanos, sandinistas, FMLNs, etc. As soon as they gain power, they set out to "clean the ranks" of those who had the power to put them there.
"Pardon him, Theodotus; he is a barbarian and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature" --- "Caesar and Cleopatra"...G.B. Shaw
-----
Kid Rock - Born Free
-----
"The big sisters are usually hot, but the dads smell of alcohol and tobacco....and have dirty feet with dead toe nails in blue slippers. "...Bob_Honest on "The Culture"
------
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes
------
Isaiah 40:31
Forumosan avatar
TainanCowboy
Guan Yin (Guānyīn)
 
Posts: 16234
Joined: 18 Jun 2004, 17:50
Location: Tainan - The Original Taiwan
103 Recommends(s)
49 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: Che Guevara Material

Postby TheGingerMan » 02 Mar 2012, 19:31

TainanCowboy wrote:Its the same story with these "revolutionaries" over and over. Cubanos, sandinistas, FMLNs, etc. As soon as they gain power, they set out to "clean the ranks" of those who had the power to put them there.


This would seem to be the case. Yet sooner or later that label of "revolutionaries" will swing in a wide arc of about 357 degrees, to include those on the right, as well as the left.
Plenty of evil Fascist, sorry, Nationalistic Conservative, elements have had their hands on a hatchet. This phenomenon is not isolated to evil Communists, sorry, Social Nationalists........
"Turne ye to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope,
even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee:"

~~~ZECHARIAH 9:12

"Or fill high hawkfell of my hand,
with skalds reward for skilled word?"

~~~Egill Skallagrimssøn, c.974


"Opinion is underrated since it is too difficult for most and not understood by the rest."
~~~elektronisk
Forumosan avatar
TheGingerMan
Bureaucrat of the Underworld (cóng dìyù lái de guānliáo)
Bureaucrat of the Underworld (cóng dìyù lái de guānliáo)
 
Posts: 7709
Joined: 29 Aug 2005, 00:38
Location: The Thin Edge Of The Wedge
4 Recommends(s)
216 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: Che Guevara Material

Postby Ducked » 05 Mar 2012, 10:09

TheGingerMan wrote:
TainanCowboy wrote:Its the same story with these "revolutionaries" over and over. Cubanos, sandinistas, FMLNs, etc. As soon as they gain power, they set out to "clean the ranks" of those who had the power to put them there.


This would seem to be the case. Yet sooner or later that label of "revolutionaries" will swing in a wide arc of about 357 degrees, to include those on the right, as well as the left.
Plenty of evil Fascist, sorry, Nationalistic Conservative, elements have had their hands on a hatchet. This phenomenon is not isolated to evil Communists, sorry, Social Nationalists........


Gingerman, while your even-handedness is admirable, I think its a little overdone, given that the right provides the Full-Scale Deflection (so far), Reference Standard for 20th century evil.

But I guess its not a competition. Oh wait, perhaps it is.... :ponder:
We reach for the sky. Neither does civilisation.

(Incidentally, if the search button is your friend, you must have some bloody useless, dysfunctional friends)
Forumosan avatar
Ducked
Overpaid Foreign Athlete (duō fù xīn shuǐ guò gāo de wài jí yùn dòng yuán)
Overpaid Foreign Athlete (duō fù xīn shuǐ guò gāo de wài jí yùn dòng yuán)
 
Posts: 3540
ORIGINAL POSTER
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 16:46
9 Recommends(s)
48 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: Che Guevara Material

Postby ChewDawg » 05 Mar 2012, 10:16

Ducked wrote:
Gingerman, while your even-handedness is admirable, I think its a little overdone, given that the right provides the Full-Scale Deflection (so far), Reference Standard for 20th century evil.


Again, I think you need a history lesson Ducked. Most right-wing Hohenzollern/Junker elites had no time for that "bohemian corporal" who became a national socialist. The true conservatives in Germany backed Hindenberg (who despised Hitler on a personal level) all the way in '32 and Hitler rose only because many abandoned the social democrats for the Nazis. Look at the ideology of the Rohm-led brownshirts before the Night of the Long Knives and you'll see class warfare rhetoric that would please any Occupy Wall Street fanatic. :lol: :lol: They absolutely despised the landed gentry/aristocrats in Germany that were conservative but paternalistic.

In other words, the national socialists were exactly that---class and race-baiting socialists.
So I got an expresso and a hot burrito!

This post was recommended by GuyInTaiwan (05 Mar 2012, 12:06)
Rating: 5.88%
Forumosan avatar
ChewDawg
Gravel Truck Driver (suìshí chē sījī)
Gravel Truck Driver (suìshí chē sījī)
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: 06 Sep 2011, 10:27
107 Recommends(s)
92 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: Che Guevara

Postby fred smith » 05 Mar 2012, 14:45

Agreed Chewdawg. The TRUE conservatives would never have voted for a "Bavarian" much less a failed soldier of an Austrian who was also a socialist. The Conservative parties were either the Deutsche Volk Partei or the Deutche Democratische Volk Partei or whatever that variation was. It escapes my memory and for the LOVE OF GOD... Che Guevara!!! I am buying a t shirt....
Forumosan avatar
fred smith
Guan Yin (Guānyīn)
 
Posts: 16607
Joined: 11 Oct 2002, 17:14
55 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: Che Guevara Material

Postby Ducked » 05 Mar 2012, 18:36

ChewDawg wrote:
Ducked wrote:
Gingerman, while your even-handedness is admirable, I think its a little overdone, given that the right provides the Full-Scale Deflection (so far), Reference Standard for 20th century evil.


Again, I think you need a history lesson Ducked. Most right-wing Hohenzollern/Junker elites had no time for that "bohemian corporal" who became a national socialist. The true conservatives in Germany backed Hindenberg (who despised Hitler on a personal level) all the way in '32 and Hitler rose only because many abandoned the social democrats for the Nazis. Look at the ideology of the Rohm-led brownshirts before the Night of the Long Knives and you'll see class warfare rhetoric that would please any Occupy Wall Street fanatic. :lol: :lol: They absolutely despised the landed gentry/aristocrats in Germany that were conservative but paternalistic.

In other words, the national socialists were exactly that---class and race-baiting socialists.


I'm Scottish, and have a very narrow and personal reference frame.

I was referring to Margaret Thatcher.

PLEASE don't tell me she was left-wing AS WELL :pray: One can only take so much re-education.
We reach for the sky. Neither does civilisation.

(Incidentally, if the search button is your friend, you must have some bloody useless, dysfunctional friends)
Forumosan avatar
Ducked
Overpaid Foreign Athlete (duō fù xīn shuǐ guò gāo de wài jí yùn dòng yuán)
Overpaid Foreign Athlete (duō fù xīn shuǐ guò gāo de wài jí yùn dòng yuán)
 
Posts: 3540
ORIGINAL POSTER
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 16:46
9 Recommends(s)
48 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: Che Guevara Material

Postby Ducked » 05 Mar 2012, 19:26

TainanCowboy wrote:Ducked -
Interesting document. My read on is that this explains the ambiguity that was desired for the operational effectiveness of the assignment.
Starting at #5, we see their introduction and given 'cover' as "experts on guerrilla warfare" along with handwritten doc's requesting full support from all civilian and military personnel. Later they were quartered in Bolivian Officers Quarters on a military base. This housing would be noticed and establish a lot of credibility among the troops as to their status. And frankly, they all knew what the mission was - remove the outside insurgent.

Later, in #6 - ;issued Bolivian Army uniforms and credentials as Captains but w/out rank insignias - this is known as a "cleaned uniform." SOP for a mission of this type. The American Ambassador has "plausible denial" as to their activities. No official docs to show his involvement - SOP.

Bottom line about Che' is that he was a murdering psychopath whose actions had caused even Fidel to want to get rid of him. His "assignment" to Bolivia was done for this reason. He got "The Good-Bye Look" from Fidel and his brother Raul because they knew his time as a benefit for 'La revolucion' was over. He was a tool, he was used and it was time to get rid of him.

Its the same story with these "revolutionaries" over and over. Cubanos, sandinistas, FMLNs, etc. As soon as they gain power, they set out to "clean the ranks" of those who had the power to put them there.


As I understand it, US (=CIA?) policy, at least as represented in contemporary leaked/declassified documents, was to keep him alive, presumably the better to de-mythologise him.

IF this is true, (or even if its just the favored story) you'd think they'd have liked to have avoided the (unecessary?) embarrasment of a CIA agent being seen to give the kill order on the ground, given that he wasn't part of the official chain of command.

It could be, I suppose, that this is a relatively minor example of the interests of the United States (or even those of the CIA) not being quite the same as those of Cuban exile organisations.

The bombing of Cubana Flight 455 would perhaps (and hopefully, from a US perspective) be another.
We reach for the sky. Neither does civilisation.

(Incidentally, if the search button is your friend, you must have some bloody useless, dysfunctional friends)
Forumosan avatar
Ducked
Overpaid Foreign Athlete (duō fù xīn shuǐ guò gāo de wài jí yùn dòng yuán)
Overpaid Foreign Athlete (duō fù xīn shuǐ guò gāo de wài jí yùn dòng yuán)
 
Posts: 3540
ORIGINAL POSTER
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 16:46
9 Recommends(s)
48 Recognized(s)

6000

Re: Che Guevara Material

Postby Ducked » 26 Mar 2012, 01:06

TainanCowboy wrote:Ducked -
Its the same story with these "revolutionaries" over and over. Cubanos, sandinistas, FMLNs, etc. As soon as they gain power, they set out to "clean the ranks" of those who had the power to put them there.


Is that a rule? How about the American Revolution? Did the Founding Fathers follow-up with a Night of The Long Knives?

I assume not, but, as has been pointed out, my history is rather patchy. IIRC the main anti-imperialist struggle we covered at school centred on Bannockburn.
We reach for the sky. Neither does civilisation.

(Incidentally, if the search button is your friend, you must have some bloody useless, dysfunctional friends)
Forumosan avatar
Ducked
Overpaid Foreign Athlete (duō fù xīn shuǐ guò gāo de wài jí yùn dòng yuán)
Overpaid Foreign Athlete (duō fù xīn shuǐ guò gāo de wài jí yùn dòng yuán)
 
Posts: 3540
ORIGINAL POSTER
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 16:46
9 Recommends(s)
48 Recognized(s)

6000





Return to International Politics



Who is online

Forumosans browsing this forum: goose egg and 5 visitors

I still find each day too short for all the thoughts I want to think, all the walks I want to take, all the books I want to read and all the friends I want to see -- JOHN BURROUGHS