Che Guevara

[Ducked]

Ducked -
Thanks for clarifying the 'adult students' part - I did not see that.

As to:

In this context, for example, a CIA field agent comes a very poor second to a used-car salesman, objective truth expectation-wise.

The main contributor, who was personally involved in the Che issue, is a man named 'Felix Rodriguez.' His writing on the Che affair are well documented. Verification of its credibility have been long established.

As to:

I don't feel any particular compulsion to defend Che, but I can't tell them "THE truth" because I don't know it.

Well, the truth is out there. One can chose to make use of it or not.

Perhaps it is, but I doubt its always identifiable as such.

To take one small example, I quote from a declassified NSA document, here

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB5/che15_2.htm

"Despite their apparent status as Bolivian officers, [ ] said they never were given orders by higher-ranking Bolivian officers (One exception to this rule was the order which Colnel [ ] issued to [ ] on the day of Guevara's excecution, if [ ] story is to be believed."

This appears to be a reference to the senior CIA advisor giving/transmitting the execution order to the shooter, and that "if" suggests some reservations, quite proper for an intelligence analyst.

If one pokes around a bit (and I've only had time to do a very little reading so far) there are inevitably discrepancies in the various accounts.

History is written by the victors, especially if the vanquished are all...er....rather dead.

[TainanCowboy]

Ducked -
Interesting document. My read on is that this explains the ambiguity that was desired for the operational effectiveness of the assignment.
Starting at #5, we see their introduction and given 'cover' as "experts on guerrilla warfare" along with handwritten doc's requesting full support from all civilian and military personnel. Later they were quartered in Bolivian Officers Quarters on a military base. This housing would be noticed and establish a lot of credibility among the troops as to their status. And frankly, they all knew what the mission was - remove the outside insurgent.

Later, in #6 - ;issued Bolivian Army uniforms and credentials as Captains but w/out rank insignias - this is known as a "cleaned uniform." SOP for a mission of this type. The American Ambassador has "plausible denial" as to their activities. No official docs to show his involvement - SOP.

Bottom line about Che' is that he was a murdering psychopath whose actions had caused even Fidel to want to get rid of him. His "assignment" to Bolivia was done for this reason. He got "The Good-Bye Look" from Fidel and his brother Raul because they knew his time as a benefit for 'La revolucion' was over. He was a tool, he was used and it was time to get rid of him.

Its the same story with these "revolutionaries" over and over. Cubanos, sandinistas, FMLNs, etc. As soon as they gain power, they set out to "clean the ranks" of those who had the power to put them there.

[TheGingerMan]

Its the same story with these "revolutionaries" over and over. Cubanos, sandinistas, FMLNs, etc. As soon as they gain power, they set out to "clean the ranks" of those who had the power to put them there.

This would seem to be the case. Yet sooner or later that label of "revolutionaries" will swing in a wide arc of about 357 degrees, to include those on the right, as well as the left.
Plenty of evil Fascist, sorry, Nationalistic Conservative, elements have had their hands on a hatchet. This phenomenon is not isolated to evil Communists, sorry, Social Nationalists........

[Ducked]

Its the same story with these "revolutionaries" over and over. Cubanos, sandinistas, FMLNs, etc. As soon as they gain power, they set out to "clean the ranks" of those who had the power to put them there.

This would seem to be the case. Yet sooner or later that label of "revolutionaries" will swing in a wide arc of about 357 degrees, to include those on the right, as well as the left.
Plenty of evil Fascist, sorry, Nationalistic Conservative, elements have had their hands on a hatchet. This phenomenon is not isolated to evil Communists, sorry, Social Nationalists........

Gingerman, while your even-handedness is admirable, I think its a little overdone, given that the right provides the Full-Scale Deflection (so far), Reference Standard for 20th century evil.

But I guess its not a competition. Oh wait, perhaps it is....

[ChewDawg]

Gingerman, while your even-handedness is admirable, I think its a little overdone, given that the right provides the Full-Scale Deflection (so far), Reference Standard for 20th century evil.

Again, I think you need a history lesson Ducked. Most right-wing Hohenzollern/Junker elites had no time for that "bohemian corporal" who became a national socialist. The true conservatives in Germany backed Hindenberg (who despised Hitler on a personal level) all the way in '32 and Hitler rose only because many abandoned the social democrats for the Nazis. Look at the ideology of the Rohm-led brownshirts before the Night of the Long Knives and you'll see class warfare rhetoric that would please any Occupy Wall Street fanatic. They absolutely despised the landed gentry/aristocrats in Germany that were conservative but paternalistic.

In other words, the national socialists were exactly that---class and race-baiting socialists.

[fred smith]

Agreed Chewdawg. The TRUE conservatives would never have voted for a "Bavarian" much less a failed soldier of an Austrian who was also a socialist. The Conservative parties were either the Deutsche Volk Partei or the Deutche Democratische Volk Partei or whatever that variation was. It escapes my memory and for the LOVE OF GOD... Che Guevara!!! I am buying a t shirt....

[Ducked]

Gingerman, while your even-handedness is admirable, I think its a little overdone, given that the right provides the Full-Scale Deflection (so far), Reference Standard for 20th century evil.

Again, I think you need a history lesson Ducked. Most right-wing Hohenzollern/Junker elites had no time for that "bohemian corporal" who became a national socialist. The true conservatives in Germany backed Hindenberg (who despised Hitler on a personal level) all the way in '32 and Hitler rose only because many abandoned the social democrats for the Nazis. Look at the ideology of the Rohm-led brownshirts before the Night of the Long Knives and you'll see class warfare rhetoric that would please any Occupy Wall Street fanatic. They absolutely despised the landed gentry/aristocrats in Germany that were conservative but paternalistic.

In other words, the national socialists were exactly that---class and race-baiting socialists.

I'm Scottish, and have a very narrow and personal reference frame.

I was referring to Margaret Thatcher.

PLEASE don't tell me she was left-wing AS WELL One can only take so much re-education.

[Ducked]

Ducked -
Interesting document. My read on is that this explains the ambiguity that was desired for the operational effectiveness of the assignment.
Starting at #5, we see their introduction and given 'cover' as "experts on guerrilla warfare" along with handwritten doc's requesting full support from all civilian and military personnel. Later they were quartered in Bolivian Officers Quarters on a military base. This housing would be noticed and establish a lot of credibility among the troops as to their status. And frankly, they all knew what the mission was - remove the outside insurgent.

Later, in #6 - ;issued Bolivian Army uniforms and credentials as Captains but w/out rank insignias - this is known as a "cleaned uniform." SOP for a mission of this type. The American Ambassador has "plausible denial" as to their activities. No official docs to show his involvement - SOP.

Bottom line about Che' is that he was a murdering psychopath whose actions had caused even Fidel to want to get rid of him. His "assignment" to Bolivia was done for this reason. He got "The Good-Bye Look" from Fidel and his brother Raul because they knew his time as a benefit for 'La revolucion' was over. He was a tool, he was used and it was time to get rid of him.

Its the same story with these "revolutionaries" over and over. Cubanos, sandinistas, FMLNs, etc. As soon as they gain power, they set out to "clean the ranks" of those who had the power to put them there.

As I understand it, US (=CIA?) policy, at least as represented in contemporary leaked/declassified documents, was to keep him alive, presumably the better to de-mythologise him.

IF this is true, (or even if its just the favored story) you'd think they'd have liked to have avoided the (unecessary?) embarrasment of a CIA agent being seen to give the kill order on the ground, given that he wasn't part of the official chain of command.

It could be, I suppose, that this is a relatively minor example of the interests of the United States (or even those of the CIA) not being quite the same as those of Cuban exile organisations.

The bombing of Cubana Flight 455 would perhaps (and hopefully, from a US perspective) be another.

[Ducked]

Ducked -
Its the same story with these "revolutionaries" over and over. Cubanos, sandinistas, FMLNs, etc. As soon as they gain power, they set out to "clean the ranks" of those who had the power to put them there.

Is that a rule? How about the American Revolution? Did the Founding Fathers follow-up with a Night of The Long Knives?

I assume not, but, as has been pointed out, my history is rather patchy. IIRC the main anti-imperialist struggle we covered at school centred on Bannockburn.